Kimberly Davis: How to Unleash Brave Leadership to Achieve Results

Episode recap: 

Marcel sits down with Kimberly Davis, actor-turned-leadership coach and author of Brave Leadership. They explore her journey from the stage to coaching leaders worldwide, redefining what bravery means at work, and why authenticity and vulnerability matter more than ever. Kimberly shares strategies for courageous conversations, lessons from her TED talk, and her vision of helping 1 million people uncover their “super objective.” Along the way, you’ll learn how to focus on impact and bring more courage into your leadership. 

Guest Bio:

Kimberly Davis is the founder and author of Brave Leadership, where she champions emerging leaders and senior managers navigating today’s workplace. She shares her inspirational message of personal power, responsibility, and impact with organizations across the country and teaches leadership programs worldwide. Kimberly is Adjunct Faculty for Southern Methodist University’s Cox School of Business’ Executive Education Program. She’s also a TEDx speaker, and her book, Brave Leadership, named among Inc. Magazine's most impactful books, became an Amazon bestseller in Business Leadership and Motivation, and received the Benjamin Franklin Silver Award for Business and Career. 

Quotes: 

• "Bravery is not the absence of fear—it’s the choice to move forward in spite of it." 
• "Authenticity isn’t about oversharing; it’s about aligning your actions with who you truly are." 
• "The leaders who will thrive in this new world are those who dare to connect, even when it feels uncomfortable." 

Takeaways: 

• Stop trying to be the “perfect” leader—focus instead on being present and authentic. 
• Bravery is a practice: small, consistent choices to act with clarity and courage. 
• Connection is leadership currency—without it, influence falls flat. 
• Fear is natural, but it doesn’t have to run the show. 
• Leading bravely isn’t about heroics; it’s about showing up as your best, real self. 

Timestamps: 

[00:00] Welcome and introduction
[01:07] Introducing Kimberly Davis and Brave Leadership
[03:11] Kimberly's Journey from Acting to Leadership Training
[07:19] From Onstage Leadership to Brave Leadership
[12:36] Defining Brave Leadership in Today's World
[17:36] Special Launch Announcement
[22:21] Collaborative Leadership and Global Change
[25:17] Authenticity in Leadership
[26:32] Defining Authenticity in Leadership
[27:53] The Role of Vulnerability in Leadership
[29:02] Navigating Personal Vulnerability
[30:38] Impact of Vulnerability on Leadership
[44:07] Creating a Culture of Courage
[46:23] Speed Round and Final Thoughts

Conclusion: 

Leadership today isn’t about following old scripts—it’s about writing a new one rooted in bravery and authenticity. Kimberly Davis reminds us that the leaders who will thrive in uncertain times are those who show up with courage, presence, and connection. By practicing bravery in small, intentional ways, we not only inspire others but also unlock our own potential to lead with impact. 

Links:

Now Be Brave - https://nowbebrave.com/

Website - https://brave-leadership.com/

Book: https://www.amazon.com/Brave-Leadership-Confident-Powerful-Authentic-ebook/dp/B077ZH91TG?ref_=ast_author_dp 

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimberlydavisonst

Transcript

Marcel Schwantes  00:03 

Hey gang, welcome back. Got another great show for you and another amazing guest, so I'm going to set the table for you this way. Okay, I think you would agree with me that the world has shifted in ways that we could not have possibly imagined even five years ago. Maybe I could say even three years ago, okay? And the truth is that the old leadership playbook doesn't work, okay? So that's we need to get over that, because today's leaders, if you really want to succeed and leave a legacy, are those who dare to lead from the heart. Sure they're still using their head right? They're using their knowledge, their expertise, their their logic and intelligence, the head stuff. But today's leaders, the best of the best, get into their hearts. Okay? They're authentic, they're self aware, they're courageous, and they care a great deal about people, which is the whole reason why you listen to the show. Hello. All right, so our guest today is Kimberly Davis, and she knows this better than anyone. Okay? She is the author of brave leadership. If you are watching on YouTube, there it is okay. So the brave leadership is a book that challenges us to sort of step beyond fears and apprehensions and challenges us to build confidence that we can kind of count on in our day to day work, how we lead people, right, and how we influence people, right? So if you've ever wondered how to lead boldly, especially in a world moving at the speed, the lightning speed that we're at with AI, okay, this is not only the book for you. This is a conversation you're going to really enjoy. Kimberly Davis not only wrote the book, she is the founder of brave leadership, where she champions emerging leaders and senior managers navigating today's workplace. She shares her inspirational message of personal power, responsibility and impact with organizations across the country, and she also teaches leadership programs worldwide. In fact, Kimberly is adjunct faculty for Southern Methodist University's Cox School of Business. She's also a TEDx speaker, and her book, Brave Leadership, was named among Ink Magazine's most impactful books. And by the way, I haven't mentioned this, so I'll drop it in right here. Brave leadership has been revised and updated with new content. It was just re-released this summer, in June, in fact. And I'm thrilled that Kimberly is here to talk about it. You're gonna love her. And here she is. She now joins us on the podcast. Kimberly, welcome. 

Kimberly Davis  03:02 

It's so great to be here with you, Marcel, and all of you who are listening. I'm so excited to be here. 

Marcel Schwantes  03:08 

And hey, this is how we start the episode. You ready? 

Kimberly Davis  03:12 

Yep, I'm ready. 

Marcel Schwantes

What's your story? 

Kimberly Davis  03:16 

Well, my story is very different than most people who do the kind of work that I do. I started off as an actor, and I was an actor for many, many, many years, and when I eventually transitioned out of the theater world and into the training and development world, I was kind of a hired gun for an engagement and leadership organization, and I was in the classroom day after day after day, and I was noticing that a lot of the things that we struggle with as actors on the stage were things that I was seeing the people in my classrooms struggling with, and yet nobody was talking about these things, and there didn't seem to be any way to deal with these things. So I would watch people, you know, when their boss would come into the room while I was teaching, try to, you know, overcompensate and prove themselves. Or I'd watch them start to shrink back and make themselves smaller and try to hide out in the conversation. And I, you know, all of these different things when, when you're an actor on the stage and you're in the spotlight, everything is much bigger, right? So you're, you're you're worried about what people are going to think about you, and you're worried about making a mistake and looking silly and looking foolish and people judging you and failing and all of those, those things. Well, turns out that, you know, people in business are thinking these exact same things, but nobody's really talking about it. So what I realized is that a lot of the tools that we were using in the theater to help us get out of our heads and stop worrying about what people are thinking and having that be the thing that informed how we showed up in the world, right? So because what happens is when you're worried about what are people going to think about me, and will I make a mistake, and will I look foolish? You start behaving in ways that aren't necessarily your best, most authentic and powerful self, right? We start protecting ourselves. We start to prove ourselves all of these different things. Well, in the theater, we've got tools to deal with that. And so what I did is about so I guess it was back in 2008 way back in 2008 I was in the classroom for a large pharmaceutical company that was a subsidiary of Johnson and Johnson. And the the head of training sat in on my class, and he heard about my strange theater background, and he walked up to me, actually, the next morning after googling me. And this was early, you know, early internet. I had my old coaching website up and things and he had read about me, and he walked in and he said, Hey, you know, I've always wanted to do a leadership program that use theater tools. And I said, Well, you know, I've been noodling something over for years, but haven't had an excuse to develop it. And so I got permission from the organization I was working with at the time to work directly with the client, because they didn't want to touch this weird leadership theater thing with a 10 foot pole, you know, with their with one of their top clients. And so I worked out a deal with him that I would develop this full day experiential program for his high potential sales team. And in exchange for the scream and deal, I would retain the IP, all the ownership for the content. And so he got a great deal. And before we rolled it out in Philadelphia, I thought, Well, gosh, you know, I need to make sure this isn't awful, so that it works. Because I didn't know, I mean, it was so counter to all of the corporate programs, leadership programs, engagement programs I had been a part of in the past, and it was very experiential. So I ran an open enrollment session of that of what I was calling on stage leadership. And it was incredibly successful. And I ran that in Dallas, and then we ran it in Philadelphia for the high potential sales team. And that was the beginning of at the time it was called on stage leadership. It now on stage leadership is still a program that I run, but it has become so much bigger than that Marcel, because what I realized when people are willing to be who they are, powerfully, constructively, responsibly in in every situation they face and take ownership of the impact that they have, that that takes a tremendous amount of courage, and that's where I started transitioning to calling my work in general, brave leadership, because it requires us to be brave, the the what it requires us for show to show up powerfully in the situations where we feel off Our game and it requires a lot of bravery. 

Marcel Schwantes  08:03 

Yeah, that was it, yeah. And we'll be unpacking all kinds of things about your book and brave leadership. So, just so I'm making the link between where you started in with your acting drama background, and then that company, which company was it that you said, approached you about doing it was, it was a big pharma company that was a subsidiary of Johnson and Johnson. 

Kimberly Davis  08:22 

So, you know, that was back in 2008 I think they've changed like, three times since then. But that's the way of the world, right? 

Marcel Schwantes  08:35 

So are you saying that it was because of that that kind of launched you into this new world of leadership? 

Kimberly Davis  08:41 

I was teaching an engagement workshop for them through a different company. And that's when this, the head of training approached me after sitting in on my work, and he's like, I really like, I really like your work. I want to do a program on theater. I don't know what that looks like. And so that's when I developed on stage leadership, which eventually became brave leadership. I still on stage leadership as well, but that's a really small, intimate 12 Person program. So as I started to do more work, I had to add I had some other programs, because making a difference. 12 people at a time. Is a is a tough it's a tough road to help, yeah. 

Marcel Schwantes  09:23 

Okay, so then take us back. Can we flash back to when you wrote the book? Because a lot of people may have the copy of your first edition right now, yeah. And which happened around 2017 -18 time frame, right? Yeah. So what was the journey from that pharma company that invited you to that, and you're like, Oh, hey, I'm onto something here. I can make this happen, you know, at scale to writing the book. And what was the journey to that point? 

Kimberly Davis  09:56 

Yeah, so I had been doing that, that back into eight that launched on stage leadership. And so I was doing regular open enrollment programs almost monthly the first couple of years. And then as I started doing more private programs for clients, I would I backed my open enrollment down to, you know, once a quarter. And and was doing a lot more with directly with clients. And what I kept hearing over and over again is this is amazing. And I don't really know, how can I get my hands on learning more about this, and the truth is, I, you know, I've learned from just like you, we've learned from so many of the greats that are out there. But unless somebody had studied, I was a, you know, theater major, so unless somebody had done a a deep dive into the world of theater, a lot of the tools that I was using, and a lot of the ways that I was using them in the in a business environment, to my knowledge, had not ever been talked about in the same way before. And if you just to, you know, give you some context. This was before. So I'm talking about authentic, authenticity and presence and influence and vulnerability and purpose and all of these things. That was before Bernie Brown's TED Talk came out. That was before start with why seven cynics war came out. That was before Dan Pink's drive came out, so I was really a strange unicorn. I mean, people looked at me like I had three horns on the head, my head half the time. And what was wonderful is, as all those big bodies of work started coming out, people started going, Oh, okay, I see some value in this. But before that, it took some time because people didn't get it. People didn't get well, why do I want to be vulnerable in the workplace? Well, why does purpose matter? You know, so. So that was a tougher time to have this conversation, because people weren't having it. Now, thank goodness, yeah, you know, thanks to your work and the work of, you know, we've got a lot of friends who work in this space. I think the culmination of all of us, you know, working consistently in to have this message, I think it's really started to create a groundswell. I say that it's, it's changed the world. I think we still have work to do well, but it's been exciting. 

Marcel Schwantes  12:26 

But I agree with you, the ground sell is happening and it's expanding. More and more people are jumping on the bandwagon of creating more of everything you talk about in the book. So let's, let's dive in here. Okay, because okay. And by the way, you probably get this question asked a lot, but I'm wondering if the answer might be different from 2018 time frame to this year. So here we are 2025 it's post covid, yeah. And now we're entering the AI revolution. So here's a question you've heard probably a million times. What does brave leadership mean to you today? 

Kimberly Davis  13:06 

Well, in many ways, it means the same thing, but I think our obstacles are bigger, right? So for me, the way I define bravery is different than what we traditionally look at bravery as traditionally look at bravery as being willing to face and endure pain and danger, right? Well, I don't know about you, but you know, I don't really get excited about, yeah, I can't wait to face and endure pain and danger, right? And I know, you know what, what's true in terms the way our brains work is we, we get what we focus on. So if you focus on the pain and danger. So when you think I want to be brave, right? And what you're doing is you're I want to be brave, because I know that there's pain and danger. So when you focus on the pain and danger, you're going to experience the pain and danger viscerally, right? Your body is going to react. Your amygdala is going to start kicking in those that Cortis, those cortisol hormones and you're going to start to viscerally react to what you're experiencing is pain and danger. Pain and danger isn't always running into a burning building. It's not always a physical thing. Pain and danger might be rejection, it might be judgment. It might be you've, you know, loss of identity. It could be a lot. It'll be a lot of different things, humiliation, overwhelm. All of these things are, are part of the pain and danger parcel, right? So if you're focusing on pain and danger, you get pain in danger. What I knew is that if I wanted to show up as my more powerfully in my life, I couldn't focus on the things that scared me, because that would start to make me play small. That would start to make me it would stop me in my tracks. Yeah, and so for myself, I redefined what it means to be brave, and I redefined it as being your best, most authentic, confident and powerful and authentic self, and if you could, I knew if I could do that, if I could be my best, most most authentic, my most confident, my most powerful self, that I could face the pain and danger, right? But I'm focusing it on. I'm focusing on addressing it in a different way, and so that would allow me to do the hard things. It would allow me to be and bring my better self, but I wouldn't get stopped by my focus of attention. And essentially, most of my work really has been about, how are you focusing your attention? Because where your attention goes, your actions follow, right, your focus triggers your feelings, which trigger your behavior. And so, if we can shift our focus, we can shift our outcomes. 

Marcel Schwantes  15:33 

I need you to repeat that, that is one of those, like mic drop moment kind of quotes. Tell me again, what we focus on run through 

Kimberly Davis  15:44 

that cycle, yeah, our focus triggers our feelings, yes, which then triggers our behaviors, right? So if you're focused on I'm scared. So what happens is that you're be you, you, you, you feel all sorts of feelings that trigger your your amygdala to cause your body to do things, which cause you to shut down, which cause you to play small, which cause you to try to prove yourself to it being it's our focus triggers our feelings, which triggers our behaviors. So if we can shift our focus, we can shift our outcomes. 

Marcel Schwantes  16:18 

okay, yeah, because if you don't shift our focus, it almost becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, that if you're fearful of something the end of the road, that you're going to end up fearing that then whatever that thing is. 

Kimberly Davis  16:30 

Exactly, okay, all right, you live into it, yeah. 

Marcel Schwantes  16:34 

Um boy. This is a big component of your book. So I want to, I want you to unpack something that you call, and I quote, super objective. Okay, what is that? 

Kimberly Davis  16:45 

So your super objective is essentially the marriage of your values and your strength, and then set into actionable language. So it's essentially your deepest purpose, but we put it in actionable language, so it forces you into action with yourself. And it's not, you know, a lot of times when we think of purpose, it gets this, like, this big, hairy, scary furball, where we're like, oh, what's my life purpose? And we, instead of putting us on an active path that kind of shuts us down, going, I need to figure it out. I need to figure it out. Well, what a super objective does. It just allows you to show up purposefully in every situation you face, because it's anchored in action. So you cannot achieve your super objective just by thinking it in your head. It forces you to get in the game. 

Marcel Schwantes  17:31 

Yeah, Okay, before we dive any deeper into this conversation, this is totally related, okay, I want to make sure our listeners know about the special launch that you got going on. Break that down. 

Kimberly Davis  17:43 

Oh, it's so exciting. So I have been wanting to do this Marcel for more than 17 years. What? So this has been, this is like one of those bucket list dreams that I've had forever, and I wanted to democratize the super objective. Because what I have seen is, I've seen it change lives. I've seen it's changed my life. I've seen it make a difference. And so I thought, you know, for for so long, most of my work has unfolded doing, you know, very big executive education programs for people that have been hand picked by their leaders and their HR managers to attend this high potential or or Emerging Leader program. But what I know to be true is most people don't have to have access to those big programs. And so I wanted to make this the super objective accessible to everyone. If you've got an internet connection that you can do that. But of course, up until recently, the technology just wasn't there without spending a gazillion dollars. And I, you know, I didn't have a gazillion dollars, so, so I just kept waiting and waiting and trying to figure out how I could do that. And, you know, in the last couple of years, so much has changed in the world of technology. And I happen to be married to an engineer who is very tech savvy, unlike his wife, and so we've partnered on building out an online super objective tool. Yeah, and this is so exciting, Marcel, because now and it's going to be completely free, we want, we want people to be able to identify their super objective I mean, this is, this is where I kind of geek out on this kind of thing. And I know you do too, so this will be fun. But so, you know, I'm kind of a change the world kind of girl and but yet, I'm, I do it on one person at a time. That's how I roll. Is I want to, you know, connect you to the best of who you are, which is my super objective, to connect you to the best of who you are. And then the ripple effect of that will change other people. And the ripple effect of that will change the world. So anyway, so my belief is that if we want to see a better world is going to unfold one person, one situation, one impact at a time. And so if people are keyed in. To their super objective, and they can take constructive, purposeful action to make a positive impact in every situation you face. Which is what a super objective allows you to do. Then the ripple effect of that is that we all benefit a rising tide lifts all ships. So that's the way we change the world, one person, one situation, one impact at a time. 

Marcel Schwantes  20:24 

I love it. Well, I don't want to wait, wait for them to get to the end of the episode. How do we how do they get this tool like 

Kimberly Davis  20:32 

So it's very exciting. So it's the one of the reasons we did a re release of brave leadership is we put the tool as a QR code in the book. So it used to be a manual process, a brief manual like a shorter process of my the manual, the deep manual process I do in the classroom, but now it it the QR code will take you right to the super objective tool, which is exciting. But you can all go to the super objective tool with or without the book, by simply going to now be brave.com and it will walk you right through the tool. Now, let me there's a little caveat I want to put out there, Marcel, because there are so many tools. You know, there's what's your spirit animal tool, and all of these tools out there that are making the rounds on social. This is not that, okay, so this is more of a robust tool. I mean, it's, it's got a lot there's, it's statistically sound. So it's going to take about 20 to 40 minutes. Most people take about 25 minutes, okay, to complete it. But don't go in thinking that it's going to be a five minute. You know, one and done. It is, this is going to, this is going to put you in in the the path to be able to uncover your deepest purpose, and so that takes a little bit more, more effort than just naming your spirit animal. 

Marcel Schwantes  21:53 

Nowbebrave.com 

Kimberly Davis  21:54 

nowbebrave.com 

Marcel Schwantes  21:56 

Or get Kimberly's book and find the QR code. Alright. Awesome. Thank you. So glad you mentioned that. And yeah, so we're all going to be better for it. That's the thing. Is you and I, and all the people that you know, that I know, and we are our little tribe. That's really why we do this. Kimberly, I mean, you nailed it. You said you wanted to change the world one person at a time. Yeah? Me too, yeah. And I'm hoping that this podcast will do the same, your book will do the same, because 

Kimberly Davis  22:26 

so one of the things that I that has changed for me since 2018 and is that is, you know, I used to think that all of us doing our hard work in our own little corners of the world was going to really make a difference, and I do think it makes a difference. But what I'm realizing is that if we really want to create change, we need to we need to elevate the leadership conversation together that that it like we are not in competition with one another. It is your work. I need your work, and my work, and Heather younger work, and everybody's all the different amazing people in the world, all of their work. Tan Vera Nasir work, you know, I think about all the incredible people that are doing powerful work out there in the world. And big change doesn't happen because one person decided it should be so big change happens because we, we band together and say, Hey, we're, we're going to stand together and elevate this conversation to a new place. And it reminds me, because, you know, I had this kind of big aha moment earlier this year when, when I was thinking about this and and realizing that, you know, I think back, I don't know how I'm a child of the 80s, so I me too outed myself. I just got out. But I remember back in the 80s, I think it was in 85 or 86 when there was a big concert called band aid that came out. And what was happening is, it was, there was a really devastating famine going on in Ethiopia, and there wasn't a lot of attention that was being paid to what was happening over there. And so what happened is all of these musicians all over the world got together. So there was, you know, Bono and Madonna and 

Marcel Schwantes  24:21 

Bruce Springsteen 

Kimberly Davis  24:23 

and, yeah, I mean, like, all the big names of the time, yeah. And they put together a big concert called Band Aid, and it wasn't highlighting any one of them. It was saying, hey, let's pay attention to what needs to change, right? And so they got together, they did this, this big concert, and it elevated the conversation. So now the world was paying attention. And yes, they raised money to help people, but I think, even bigger than that, it elevated attention. And to me, I think that's an opportunity. This is. Opportunity in this moment we all have together, yeah. How can we work together to say, hey, you know, we need to pay attention to what's happening in the world. And how can we play a bigger game that can only happen if we're playing side by side? 

Marcel Schwantes  25:18 

100% thanks for that. Okay, I want to dive back into some leadership concepts in your book. Okay, so let's take a very overused, by my estimation, overused buzzword. I'm guilty of overusing it too much. Maybe you are too, and that word is authenticity. 

Kimberly Davis  25:38 

Oh, you've already mentioned that, I guess. Yeah, and I'm so glad you're going there, because I think it's, it's really easy, particularly in a leadership and influence perspective, to misunderstand what authenticity is all about. I mean, a lot of people are like, Yeah, well, my boss is authentic. He's an absolutely authentic jerk. That is not, that is not what this is all about, because authenticity in the framework of leadership and influence lies in the eye of the beholder. And so let me back up a little bit my favorite definition of authenticity, I actually borrow from Bill George, who is a huge name in this space. If for those of you that aren't familiar with Bill George. It's where Bill George used to be the CEO for Medtronic. He's written a book called Authentic Leadership. He's co-written a book called True North with one of his students. And so we'll let Bill be the authentic leadership guru. But the way he defines authenticity, I think, is so incredibly powerful, and that he defines that it is, are you genuine? Are you worthy of trust? Are you reliable, and are you believable? And I think it's really beautiful definition, but it is so much more complicated than it sounds, because who gets to decide? Who gets to decide, are you genuine? Who gets to decide if you're worthy of trust, if you're someone people can rely on, who gets to decide that? And the truth is, whether you like it or not, it's, it's it's not you. I mean, you can decide it all day long if you want to, but that's not going to help you lead or influence. It's the people that you want to lead and influence that get to decide, do I experience this person is genuine? Do I experience this person is is worthy of my trust? And that doesn't mean that we become like this chameleon, shape-shifter person, you know, but what that means is it requires a sincere commitment to actually caring about the needs of other people. What do they need from me and to focus on, on, on addressing those needs without judgment. Because once we let judgment Get, get in there, it's judgment sneaks in the door. People know, and you can't have the influence you need to have. 

Marcel Schwantes  27:54 

Yeah, yeah. Okay, another buzz term, especially since you mentioned Brene Brown since her viral TED Talk, yeah, that word is vulnerability. Okay, yeah. And you know, so much of that rubs off the wrong way on a lot of leaders. So let's talk about what ways does vulnerability Well, first, what do you think, in your own terms, is vulnerability? And then how does it play a role in Brave leadership? 

Kimberly Davis  28:20 

Well, I mean most simply, I think vulnerability is letting people see you're human. See you be human, let your humanity out, because that's a pretty vulnerable thing to do, particularly in the workplace, right? And so I think vulnerability is both our biggest obstacle and our greatest opportunity for impact and and it because it depends on how you you deal with your own vulnerability. I think, I think, you know, it's interesting, because I think some of the the biggest things that stop us, and this comes from whether or not you're presenting so from a presentation skills perspective. This is true from a leadership perspective, from an influence perspective, our biggest barrier to connection is not being able to navigate our own vulnerability. And when you think about that from like, let's say, just from a presentation skills perspective, when we feel vulnerable, that's when we we do all these strange things like evade eye contact and, and, you know, wrap our arms around ourselves and and put our hands in our pockets, and have to hold on to our notes, you know, for for dear life, in case somebody might get us and, and we pace the floor, because that's our adrenaline going through our our feet, because we feel vulnerable. And so you know, if you can navigate your own vulnerability, then all of those things don't show up. You're free to show up powerfully and and authentically. Same is true from a leadership and influence perspective. So. It's the vulnerability that stops us so we when we don't show our humanity, people have a hard time connecting to us. They don't want to follow us. They, it becomes a paycheck exchange instead of a connection and a relationship. And you know, people will crawl over a broken glass for someone they believe in and knows that they care about them. But if, if you're just giving, giving your here's my title, and showing up with your title, then you're just going to get a paycheck exchange, and you cannot deliver on the results we need to be able to deliver in today's world, in that in that way, yeah, yeah. 

Marcel Schwantes  30:38 

Well, yeah, I'm totally in agreement. Vulnerability does empower. It does help you to connect with other people, build trust. I'm wondering, Kimberly, if there's a flip side to the coin where vulnerability undermines your leadership and becomes more of a hindrance. 

Kimberly Davis  30:57 

Well, so, if we go back to that definition of, often, authenticity, and I think it is one of the, the most powerful filters for action, right? So, so I kind of have a rule of thumb when it comes to vulnerability that you know if what you're about to share is better shared with your therapist instead of a close colleague, it's probably not the right thing to be sharing in a work set setting that said, so often, most of us show up way more protected and guarded than than we need to. So if, if, if we, if we look at vulnerability as a way to connect in an authentic way. From what do people need for me to experience as genuine, worthy of trust, reliance and belief, right? So, we use that filter for action to determine how we flex that vulnerability that forces you to pay attention to. Well, what does so for me right now. Well, what does Marcel need from me to experience me as someone who is genuine and and worthy of your trust, and someone you can rely on and believe in? Well, how do I prepare for that? Right? How do I show up in the face of that? What do you that are listening to us? What do you need from me right now to experience me as genuine, worthy of trust, reliance and belief. It may or may not be the same thing as it is for Marcel and for me to make an assumption that it is sets me on the wrong path. Yeah, so it really forces you to pay attention to the needs of everyone that's involved in the situation. Now, if I'm speaking to an audience of 1500 people, can I pay attention to the needs of every single person in that room? Probably not. But what I can do, Marcel, and I think we we overlook that, is I can have an honest to goodness, 100% connected moment in time with one person at a time, this person in the audience, and then that person in the audience and that person in the audience and this person in the audience and that person in the audience, be 100% present and connected to what is important to that human being in this moment in time, and that will allow me to show up as powerfully and authentically as I can. 

Marcel Schwantes  33:17 

Beautifully stated, and I would say it's always, always, always a skill that we need to develop. Like no, nobody is born with or without vulnerability. I mean, maybe you're just naturally, that's your tendency is to be more emotionally honest and be able to connect with others. Because perhaps you have, you have the edge already because of your personality type, but for anybody that's listening, is that just I can't do that. I am not wired that way. No, no, no, no, stop this, this false belief system that you are not wired that way. Anybody can learn the skill of becoming more vulnerable to be more effective. 

Kimberly Davis  33:54 

It absolutely blows me away. Marcel that when you give people permission to be human, and you get out of their way, what will show up. And I think for most of us, we don't give ourselves permission to be seen. And some of that's because there's not enough psychological safety in the workplace. Some of that is because our heads in other places. So you know it particularly for those of us that are, are, are more logical and introverted. You know, that is a natural thing that you're wearing. You're in your head more often, and that is not a bad thing. And I don't want to ever have anyone feel like that's a bad thing. But what happens is, if you can't connect to the hearts of other people, and you can't show a little bit more in terms of what's going on with you, feeling wise, people will make meaning of what they think is going on with you, and nine times out of 10, it's not in your favor. So if you don't show emotion, what's going to happen is they're going to think, well, you don't care, or that you're mad, or. That you're bored or that you don't like them, or they're I mean, because that's what human beings do, our brains make meaning of what we see. So we have to be aware of making sure that we're letting people know what's what we truly care about, what's most important to us, so they don't make meaning that is going to go against our ability to connect lead and influence them? 

Marcel Schwantes  35:23 

Yeah, absolutely. So the subtitle of your book goes like this: Unleash your most confident, powerful, and authentic self to get the results you need. Now, the word results weighs pretty heavy, because that's what leadership I mean. You know, at the end of the road, if you're running a business, hey, you need to generate results, right? Can't get away from that. Okay, so let's tie in. Think the things that we are talking about related to brave leadership, whether it's authenticity, connecting with others and being more vulnerable, etc, etc. Okay, what's that? One thing that a brave leader has to absolutely focus on to get the results that they want. 

Kimberly Davis  36:08 

Yeah, I think it's impact. I think paying attention to impact, I think our numbers are a byproduct of our impact. Marcel, and the problem is, is most of us aren't clear about the impact that we want to have. That's what the that's what an a super objective is, is it's getting really clear on what's the impact that you want to have outside yourself. Because what happens is, if we're not paying attention to impact, we can't deliver the results we need. And once we are clear about the impact, once you have clarity about something, you can name it, you can do something about it, right? Yeah, so if you don't, if you don't know what the impact that you want to have is, it's hard for you to be able to achieve that impact, and maybe you were lucky enough to achieve it once, but it's hard to be able to achieve it consistently, and if you miss the impact that you want to have, it's almost impossible for you to course correct and strategize about why didn't I have the impact I want to have. In order to be able to course correct, in order to be able to get consistent results, you have to be able to name it so you can do something about it. 

Marcel Schwantes  37:23 

Yeah, good, good, good. Okay, I want to get into you know, this is one of those questions. It's a hold up the mirror question. It might be a hard hitting question for people, because we may have blind spots that keep us from becoming brave leaders. So what would you say would be a really obvious blind spot, and if we already mentioned it, that's okay. 

Kimberly Davis  37:49 

Let's repeat it again, an obvious blind spot that keeps us from being brave leaders, focusing on ourselves and focusing on all of the focusing on the spreadsheets instead of the impact, because if you focus on the impact, the byproduct will be what you see on your spreadsheet. But when you're focused on the numbers, what happens Marcel is it can. It can really take us off our game, in terms of take us out of alignment with our values. It can take us we get real, very reactive. We're in survival mode. So all of those constructive, authentic, powerful behaviors that could get us the best results, those are, those are tossed, tossed to the to the back end, and we're just in in fight or flight survival mode, essentially. 

Marcel Schwantes  38:37 

Yeah, your book is full of stories, your own stories, stories about other people, clients, famous people, etc. I mean, share a story. Start with you. Maybe what? Maybe about your own leadership journey. Maybe a time when you had to act brave despite fear or uncertainty. 

Kimberly Davis  38:57 

Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, so interesting. I think my life has been a continual teacher, teach thyself. Situation, and for me, I think one of the biggest things that kind of rocked my world was when I did my TED talk because I had been given four weeks' notice before I was told that I was going to be able to take the TED stage. And here I here I am. I teach this stuff and yet I'm human. And so my humanity really got the best of me. And I remember going into this that, you know, the day before I gave my talk, I was an absolute wreck. I mean, I had these I was starting to focus on all the things that could go wrong. I was all, all my focus was on the pain and danger. I was fucking all like, oh my gosh, I make a complete fool out of myself and it's going to go. Viral, and there goes my business and and you know how we, you know, we start to go and go down that road. And I realized that if I wanted to get myself back on track with myself, and I think that's one of the most important things that we can realize, is it's not just, how do we get ourselves back on track with the other people involved, but moreover, it's back on track with ourselves, because I believe confidence comes from knowing that you can count on yourself. Mm, hmm. So if you have the tools to get yourself back on track with yourself, and you work your tools, what it does is it ratchets up your own self belief and your own self confidence, if you don't work the tools, and you experience yourself spinning out in these, you know, like the your amygdala, sending you into fight or flight, and and then what's going to happen is you're going to erode your own self belief, which was what was happening in front of my very eyes. Wow. So what I did was I got very specific about who I wanted to have an impact on in this, in that TED talk. And I had, I had the foresight, I don't know really how I did that, but I had the foresight to realize that I was going to be up against my own stuff in this because, you know, I mean, how we do life is how we do life. And I've been up against my stuff before. So I had had, I had brought with me pictures of all of my amazing participants who had, well, some of some of amazing participants who had put themselves on the line, and I watched them absolutely flourish, because they were able to get out of their own way and step into their brave and make an impact. And so what I did, this is kind of embarrassing. What I did is, is I went into my hotel room and I put their pictures all the way around my hotel room, and I gave my talk specifically to those people in the room. And I'm I, I spoke to Gary, who I, you know, who has made a tremendous difference in my life, and I've watched him just flourish. And I spoke, I mean, I like all, one person at a time, and I got myself centered back into myself through connection one person at a time. And so when I showed up on site, I would love to say I wasn't nervous. Sure I was nervous, but what I did is I paid attention to what does this woman here in the tweed blazer need from me to experience me as genuine, worthy of trust, reliance and belief when I'm when I'm speaking from that space, from that stage, and what does the person in the second row need from me right now in this moment in time? And what does you know that guy in the back row need from me in this moment in time? And truly, I stayed centered and focused on impact one person at a time, and that's what got me through the talk? And I would love to say, you know, it was perfect, but I don't think there is such a thing as perfect. But what it did was it helped me center in what mattered most in the at the time. And I think that's all we can all we can do is when we're up against our own stuff, and that might be, you know, having to have a really tough conversation that we don't want to have. You know, maybe it's a coaching conversation. Maybe you've gotta give bad news to someone, or it could be a presentation, or it could be a podcast, or it could be an email you have to send, or whatever it happens to be, when we're up against our own emotions, we need to get really clear on what's the impact that we want to have, and focus our attention on what we can do, what action can we take in that moment to have the impact? Because that will help us get out of our heads, circumvent our amygdala and that cortisol and show up as our best, most authentic, impactful self. Wow. 

Marcel Schwantes  44:01 

All right, let's pull back to maybe a broader perspective beyond the sort of the individual level. All right, speak to speak to the the founder of a startup, or the CEO of, you know, company with 1000 employees. So they're now realizing that culture is important. So now they understand that they need to shape a culture, yeah, brings out more courage, yeah, bravery in people. So speak to, speak to the high level decision maker there, that's that's creating the conditions, right? What? What's a good starting point? 

Kimberly Davis  44:41 

Well, you have to give reason people a reason to care. Right? From an emotional standpoint, just trying to return shareholder value is not going to give them enough reason to care. You know, what are you up to? What is, what is the work that you're doing in the world? And, you know, every single business has a. Reason why they're in business, who they serve, why that matters, the difference that they want to make. So if you can, if every person in your organization can anchor into why they care from a personal perspective, and that's, you know, that's, that's the thing is that we get, get wrong a lot of times, is we think, you know, we've got our vision, mission values, and that everybody has to care about it the same way, but we're not automatrons. We're all very, very different people. So why you care is going to be very different than why I care. But saying, This is what we're up to, that a purpose bigger than the numbers, right? This is what we're up to, and then giving everybody in your organization permission to say, Well, why do you care? What's the impact you want to have in the story? That is, this is the difference we're making. Because once they can name that, then collectively, you're moving in a direction towards really making a difference. But people get us, get that sense of autonomy that they get to care, because in the way that they care, why they care, and they get to experience themselves getting better and better and better, which is mastery, and they're living their purpose. And so if you look at those three things, autonomy, mastery and purpose, oh, my, that sounds a little bit like Dan Pink's, um, Dan Pink's definition of what it takes to motivate people in this new world of work. 

Marcel Schwantes  46:24 

Yeah. All right, as we wind down here, Kimberly, and before we transition to the speed round, I want to make sure is there something that we have not covered that our listeners absolutely must know? 

Kimberly Davis  46:38 

Well, no, we've kind of, we've covered a lot of ground in a short amount of time here. Marcel, you ask great questions. Thank you. So I think we're good. I think we're good. Let's, let's bring it on. 

Marcel Schwantes  46:48 

Okay, seat belts on. Here we go. A good book you'd recommend. 

Kimberly Davis  46:55 

You know, I recently read Jacinda Ardern book a different kind of power. And in fact, it was listening to her audio book when I broke my ankle because I was so into her audio book. But it is fantastic, and it I think she does a great job of modeling what, what I would consider to be brave leadership, what you would consider to be love based, caring based, heart based leadership. I mean, I She's, it's just a fan that fantastic book. For those of you who don't know who Jacinda Ardern is. She was the Prime Minister of New Zealand during the covid years and so, and she also had a newborn at the same time, so she was going through an awful lot at that moment in time and and I think it was, it was interesting to learn from a female perspective of, you know, leading from that level of leadership during that time in the world. So it was fantastic. 

Marcel Schwantes  47:54 

She's an amazing leader. Okay, if you weren't coaching and teaching and and training leaders. What would you be doing for a living? 

Kimberly Davis  48:04 

You know, that's so interesting, because, I mean, I was, I was an actor, so I would have, you would think that I would say I would be in the theater, but probably not. I would if I were. I mean, I can't imagine not coaching and teaching now, but I really love the the social psychology, understanding people. I probably dig further into that world. And I also love design but I don't think I'd ever want to do like you know, because we, my husband and I have done five remodels down to the studs. And I love design work, but I don't think I'd ever want to do it for money, because I, for me, that is a hard thing, just for me. So probably I'd be into some kind of psychology, social psychology, something like that. 

Marcel Schwantes  48:52 

Interesting, interesting. Okay, if you were, you know, what do you do to kind of wind down, decompress after a hard day's work. 

Kimberly Davis  49:01 

So I would have told you something totally different before I broke my ankle, because it used to be going for walks. And walking was a very, very big part of my life. I I usually walked between five and 10 miles a day. So that was kind of my How do I center myself? When do when do I listen to podcasts? How do you know all of all of that? So that's that's definitely changed. And I would love to say, Oh yes, I have now my new centering ritual. I'm still searching for that new centering ritual. And I think that was, that's been a big lesson for me, is that, you know, one thing is not, not enough. But I, you know, I think just quick and dirty. I always, every night, I always go through what I'm grateful for for the day, because it helps me remember how much I have to be grateful for in my life. 

Marcel Schwantes  49:51 

So, favorite superhero movie, favorite superhero 

Kimberly Davis  49:55 

Oh, well, Wonder Woman, of course. 

Marcel Schwantes  50:00 

Yeah, the first one, especially, I don't know about 

Kimberly Davis  50:01 

that, the first one, yeah, I wanted, when I was in elementary school, I wanted to be Wonder Woman. I mean, I had the whole golden bracelet thing going in the invisible lasso. And I would, you know, use the because I grew up in Montana, so it would all the mud puddles would freeze over, and I would use, like the the ice from the mud puddles as the looking glass that I was going to see through the future. So Wonder Woman, for sure, 

Marcel Schwantes  50:30 

and I'm sad to say this, but you and I are old enough to remember, actually remember, maybe the TV series. Oh yeah, 

Kimberly Davis  50:39 

that's what it was from. It was right, okay. It was from the TV series, yeah? Linda Carter, I was like, 

Marcel Schwantes  50:46 

former Miss America, I want to say, or was she probably, I think she was, yeah, okay, name a person dead or alive that you would like to have dinner with. 

Kimberly Davis  50:58 

Oh, well, is Oprah too cliche, because I'm still waiting for my dinner invitation, and she has got an open invitation anytime she wants to come to dinner. But I think she's absolutely remarkable human being. So I know that that's cliche, but yeah, I kind of think she's amazing. 

Marcel Schwantes  51:15 

If anybody listening has hookups with Oprah, reach out to either timber it myself. 

Kimberly Davis  51:21 

Please be Marcel. 

Marcel Schwantes  51:25 

All right, your last Speed Round question is your biggest hope for the rest of 2025 

Kimberly Davis  51:31 

oh, my biggest hope for the rest of 2025 is that so, you know, I, I've got this goal that a million people will uncover their super objective? I My suspicion is, is we won't do that by the end of 2025 given where we, you know, we're already September, but I would love to see us reach at least 5000 people to uncover their super objective by the end of the year. I think I mean the ripple effect of that, a ripple of imagine 5000 people taking consistent, constructive, purposeful action to have a positive impact. The ripple effect of that, that could change a lot. 

Marcel Schwantes  52:12 

You may now unfasten your seat belt. Alright? Kimberly, well, we bring it home, as we do with every guest by with two questions. Here we go. Okay, the first one is the love question. Sticking with themes we've talked about, how do I lead with more actionable, practical love, day in and day out? 

Kimberly Davis  52:33 

Yeah, I think really investing in caring, deeply caring what people need from you, to experience you as genuine, worthy of trust, reliance and belief that that forces love and action. It forces empathy and action. I really think what happens when you, when you invest yourself and commit to caring about what they need from you, then it, it. What it does is it allows them to feel seen, and it allows you to connect to them on a much deeper level. And to me, I think that's, that's the the seeds of love. I mean, I remember Marcel just the day before yesterday, I was in the classroom, teaching, and everybody was doing this partner work at the very end of the session, and I was sitting there. I was sitting at the table because I couldn't stand because my ankle was broken. So I'm sitting at the table, and I'm watching this sea of 40 people talk about what they know, what they care about, and the impact that they want to have. And I'm watching how they when they're talking to each other about the impact that they want to have, how they are lit up, and when they're listening to somebody talking about the impact they want to have, how much sincere care they had for one another. And I got very emotional because I thought this, this is what love and action looks like is people invested in one another and present for one another? And I thought, yeah, more of this, please. 

Marcel Schwantes  54:08 

You get to close us out. What's that one thing you'd want people to take away? 

Kimberly Davis  54:13 

What's the impact you want to have? Because if you can name it, you can do something about it. So get clear. 

Marcel Schwantes  54:18 

Love it. Hey, let's send a bunch of people to the place that they need to go to find you, connect with you, learn more about you. 

Kimberly Davis  54:25 

Awesome. Well, so you can find me in a lot of different places I hang out on LinkedIn, that's exclusively where I hang out in terms of social right now. And my website is brave-leadership.com and you can go and uncover your super objective at nowbebrave.com. 

Marcel Schwantes  54:45 

It's been real. We're gonna have to do it again. Thanks. 

Kimberly Davis  54:47 

This was awesome. Marcel, thank you so much for having me on. 

Marcel Schwantes  54:52 

Yeah, absolutely. And gang, you can keep the conversation going on social media with #loveinactionpodcast, and look to my show notes. Yes, plus all of Kimberly's contact info, all that stuff will be there, including a link to this YouTube episode, and you can find all of that on my website, MarcelSchwantes.com, for Kimberly Davis and yours truly, remember, in the end, love wins. We'll see you next time.