Caroline Fleck: How Validation Will Transform Your Relationships

Episode recap:

This week’s guest is psychologist and author Dr. Caroline Fleck. Our conversation focused on the concept of validation as a leadership tool, exploring its importance in building connections, resolving conflicts, and fostering emotional well-being in both personal and professional settings. Dr. Fleck shared her experiences and insights on validation skills, emphasizing their transformative potential across various domains and their role in creating a culture of acceptance and belonging. The discussion also touched on how the adverse effects of technology will potentially affect empathy and communication. Marcel and his guest also touched on the importance of mindfulness and self-compassion in leadership and personal growth.

Bio:

Caroline Fleck, PhD, is a licensed psychologist, an adjunct clinical instructor at Stanford University, and a business consultant. She received her doctorate in psychology and neuroscience from Duke University and holds a BA in English and psychology from the University of Michigan. She is an expert in evidence-based treatments for individuals, couples, and parents, including DBT and cognitive behavioral therapy. She is renowned for her ability to help people make critical but challenging changes and is one of Silicon Valley’s most sought-after psychotherapists.

Quotes: 

• "Validation shows that you're there, you get it, and you care. It is a way of communicating mindfulness, understanding, and empathy, so another person feels accepted—so they feel seen and heard." 
• "The greatest gift that comes from knowing how to validate others is the opportunity to find meaning in suffering. " 

Takeaways: 

• Pause before responding to someone's issue and ask: "Should I validate their experience or immediately try to solve the problem?" 
• Practice the two basic validation skills: attend to others by understanding their point, and copy their language/body language to build connection. 

Timestamps: 

00:00 Welcome and Introduction
01:26 The Power of Validation
03:33 Introducing Dr. Caroline Fleck
05:47 Dr. Fleck's Personal Journey
09:27 Understanding Validation
13:54 The Importance of Validation in the Workplace
20:48 Validation vs. Praise
26:27 Practical Validation Skills
28:34 The Importance of Dialogue in Today's Society
29:09 Effective Communication: Do You Want to Be Right or Effective?
30:37 Mindfulness Skills: Attending and Copying
33:30 The Power of Validation in Building Trust
36:25 Self-Compassion Through Validation
37:56 Techniques for Reducing Conflict in Collaborative Workplaces
42:05 The Impact of Technology on Empathy and Validation
45:52 Validation in Corporate Culture: Advice for CEOs
48:36 Speed Round: Personal Insights and Reflections
52:53 Final Thoughts and Takeaways

Conclusion: 

Validation is a simple but powerful way to strengthen trust and connection in both work and personal relationships. When we listen to understand rather than fix, we make space for honesty and closeness. This shift encourages better communication and helps people feel respected and safe. In a world that often moves too fast, taking time to truly hear someone can make all the difference. It’s a skill that builds stronger teams, deeper bonds, and more thoughtful conversations. 

Links/Resources: 

Website: https://www.drcarolinefleck.com/  

IG: https://www.instagram.com/ 

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drcarolinefleck  

Link

Transcript

Marcel Schwantes 00:05 

Hey guys, welcome back. I trust the summer is treating you well. Got a great show for you today, and I'd like to set the table like this. Okay, so if you're a leader, and you know most of you listening are so many of us spend a crazy amount of time and energy trying to get people to listen to us, right? I mean, we have great ideas. We want to influence others, and we have strategies that we want to implement, and we have people we want to speak to, you know, maybe to convince them of something our side of the story and so that means that sometimes we might spend more time talking than actually listening.  

So here we are, though, we're leaders, right? We're told to go out in front and lead the way, and, you know, and implement strategies and have a vision, etc., and then communicate that out to the people. And so what happens is, sometimes we're trying to get people to listen to us, but let's be honest. I mean, no matter how hard we try, whether it's through a one-on-one interaction, a leader to group or team members or a leader to our whole organization, we often fail in trying to get people to listen to us. Does that resonate? Okay? So what if track with me here, folks? Okay. What if the secret to changing behavior was to demonstrate acceptance. So, okay, maybe not what some of you Type A's or your closers out there wanted to hear, right? Acceptance. Come on, Marcel, that's pretty warm and fuzzy.  

All right, I'm going to elevate this conversation about acceptance by using another term for it, okay, which will be the crux of the conversation today, and that is validation. So I'm going to ask our distinguished guest in a few minutes to break down this big idea of validation. You want to stick around for this as a skill set that we can all use more of to understand and empathize and, you know, get someone else's perspective, to understand that person's experience, right, thereby accepting them and their unique perspective or experience as valid. Right? That means we have to kind of step out of our own well comfort zone and our own sort of sphere of influence in our own heads, and the word the territory that we kind of trample on all day, right? Sometimes we have to step out of that to see other people's experiences. Okay?  

So we're going to get into the science of that as well, but we are going to take this, this practice of validation, which is very known in the world of therapy and psychology, we're going to extract that from the clinical area and all the literature and the research that that people are talking about, right? We're going to, we're going to remove all that and make it into a practical, everyday, sort of conversational way of understanding it, so we can apply it to business, apply it to leadership, but also apply it to everyday relationships in life, all right?  

And to get us all going with that. I'm going to be speaking with psychologist Dr. Caroline Fleck. She is the author of validation, how the skill set that revolutionized psychology will transform your relationships, increase your influence and change your life. That book was released back in February. This is a very important book. So Dr. Fleck is a licensed psychologist, an adjunct clinical instructor at Stanford and a business consultant. She received her doctorate in psychology and neuroscience from Duke University, and also holds a BA in English and psychology from the University of Michigan. She is an expert in evidence-based treatments for individuals, couples and parents, including DBT, which we're going to explain. Don't worry, we like acronyms, but we also like to break down those acronyms. Okay? She's also very an expert in cognitive behavioral therapy as well. She is renowned for her ability to help people make critical but challenging changes.  

And also, by the way, she is one of Silicon Valley's most sought after psychotherapists, because folks I. Yeah, if you're whether you're a founder, whether you're a CEO entrepreneur, just starting out your leadership journey, this stuff is going to, you're going to learn from this stuff, which comes from the Mental Health Sciences, because we still, we still there's so much of that world that we don't understand, because it's been kind of stuck in literature books, right? Or psychology books and research, but Caroline is going to help us now take all that out and apply it to everyday life. So Dr. Caroline Fleck now joins us. Welcome to the love in action podcast. 

Caroline Fleck 05:36 

Wow. Thank you so much for having me. That was a fabulous, very kind introduction. 

Marcel Schwantes 05:41 

And I hope I was accurate as well. 

Caroline Fleck 05:43 

You were, you were, thank you.  

Marcel Schwantes 05:46 

Good deal. Good deal. All right, so we start the show like this. You ready? What's your story? 

Caroline Fleck 05:53 

Yeah, as I was thinking, Should I tell the real story, or should I tell the like the story you tell when you're at interviews. You know, back in the day, when I was trying to get into programs, and they would say, why are you going into this field? And you have your very, very academic, serious I'm interested in researching X, Y or Z. I think I'll go with the real story, yes, which is, which is that it's a sad story initially. So as an adolescent, I struggled with depression. I of course, didn't know what this was at the time, but it was, it was profound, it was severe, and I suffered for over a decade.  

And it like I said, it started as an adolescent. I was in high school, and this is how self-centered I am. I was I was doing all the things they said to do, the therapy, the meds, this, that nothing worked. Okay? So I thought, I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to go to grasp so egotistical. I literally thought, That's okay. I'll find the solution. Like none of this stuff works clearly, right? I've done it all, but don't lose hope. I'm going to go, I'll become a psychologist, and I will figure out how to treat depression this. This is my what I'm going to do. Okay? So I end up going into the field, yeah, pursuing a doctorate, and I end up getting interested in something totally separate from depression. It's a disease disorder called borderline personality disorder. I get really into this treatment for this disorder, okay, because it's just fascinating.  

And in the context of learning how to treat people with borderline personality disorder, I was introduced to this skill set, these skills that I had to master as a therapist to validate my clients. And I'll explain what that means in just a moment. Yeah, I vividly remember being in like, I can honestly remember, do remember Clippy, like the little, what was, like a little paper clip that used to show up on Word or, right? 

Marcel Schwantes 08:05 

Yeah, yeah. And the little face, yeah.  

Caroline Fleck 08:09 

I was sitting in a lecture, and, you know, the professor was introducing these skills, and Clippy was, like, right on the top, I can still see him in my head, in the corner, and it was just this list of validation skills. And as they're teaching this material, I'm going in my head, just me and Clippy. I'm thinking, why don't they teach this in grade schools? Like, why am I only now learning being exposed to this methodology, this very effective, well researched approach for communicating acceptance and building relationships, right?  

Because in therapy, that's critical, especially for the type of therapy I was doing, where folks you know are often self-injuring suicidal, you need to be able to establish a relationship and then facilitate change quickly. And these are the skills that help you do that. But again, why would we reserve that for, like, clinical psychology, when, as you noted in your introduction, there's so many different domains, just about every domain that you can think of, we would want to be able to affect change more effectively and collaborate better? 

Marcel Schwantes 09:19 

Yeah, so many directions I can go here, okay, but, and it's like, I want, I want to charge your head, you know, on the horse here, you know, off, off the gates. But let me hold back, yeah, start with definitions and get people to understand the whole idea behind validation based on the research that you have found, okay, so in your own words, how would you define it? 

Caroline Fleck 09:47 

The simple mantra I use is that validation shows that you're there, you get it and you care. Okay? It is a way of communicating mindfulness, understanding and empathy, such. Another person feels accepted such that they feel seen and heard. Okay, that's like the logical academic. That's the definition. But to make this maybe more personal, if you were to think about someone you really admire could be a friend, a spouse, a colleague, and you really want to impress this person. You want this person to like you.  

Now, if you can imagine telling that person your deepest, darkest secret, right, something that you've never or have shared, maybe with only one or two other people, something very sensitive, vulnerable to you, imagine sharing it with this person, and then imagine them responding in such a way that you felt deeply seen feeling as though that disclosure brought you closer together. Okay, that feeling that you would have in that moment that would be feeling validated, yeah, yeah, right. It would be that sense of connection, of, I'm safe, I'm okay, I'm not judged, right, right? It has all of those qualities. So that's kind of the emotional definition, if you will, of what validation is okay.  

Marcel Schwantes 11:15 

So you know how a lot of I wrote a book too, just released it in March, and our authors like us, we, we write books to create change to we have mission behind it and purpose for what we for why we write things. Okay, so let's get into the why of your book? Because I have read books on empathy till the cows come home. I have read books on emotional intelligence, you know, I got stacks to the ceiling of those books, right? But this is a little bit of a different slant on, on, on things. So talk to us about the journey that that got you to go, Okay, no, you know what? I got to write a book about this, especially in the day and age that we're in. Why? Why this book? Why now? 

Caroline Fleck 12:04 

Oh, wow, there's so many responses to that. I think the most straightforward is that, like, as I said, I'd been using these skills as a therapist, I figured out early on that this stuff resonates with therapy clients. I then started teaching it to my patients so that they could be more effective. And then, since I'm in Silicon Valley, I'm doing a fair amount of consulting, often with startups and folks in the tech sector, often, frankly, with folks for whom maybe these skills do not come as readily or easily. And I was actually brought in by Google. They asked if I would develop a class for them to help one of their teams communicate more effectively.  

So I had all this stuff I was going to teach, and I knew, I mean, you've read the book like I just knew validation I had to help them develop these skills. But this was a group of, like, pure researchers and, like, hardcore corporate leaders right here. I am going to come in with, like, My, oh yeah, yeah, right, right. So I'm going to come in and say, like, All right, so I want you guys to really, you know, be, you know, show that you're there. You get it and you care. I'm just like, this is going to be a disaster. But to my surprise, I kind of packaged the skills as I always do, taught them as I always do, and these folks loved it. After the course, it was the single most frequent comment we got was a request for more information on validation. And that's where I was, like, you know, what if this resonates with this population, and it's applicable here at work to facilitate change in these really difficult situations? I'm sorry, I just I've got to go big with this, right?  

Marcel Schwantes 13:57 

Yeah, yep, that's good. Okay, so before we get into the sort of the practical elements of how to validate and what are the skill set and all that, I want to ask you about. Why do you feel that the very practice validation is so transforming? I mean, like those, those researchers at Google, why did they feel such an impact? 

Caroline Fleck 14:24 

Yeah, well, there's a couple of things I think at work, it's really interesting because we've got this really bizarre thing going on in corporate America, if not broader than that, where we emphasize, we confuse professionalism with coldness and lack of compassion and lack of lack of humanity, and that has been to our disservice most of the time when I see conflicts in the workspace, when I see folks struggling to climb the ladder, or, you know, what have you. There's this quality, there's this validation that folks are seeking and they are unable to get it. It's something that we fundamentally need to feel like we're valued, like we belong, yeah, like, right.  

And that is so critical to the human experience, that if you can help people, people immediately resonate with that. Like everybody, I don't care you know where you work or who you are, everybody wants that. And the idea that you could be able to give that to somebody, that's cool, but also that you have the clarity around what you need in a moment, that's also really helpful. So I think it's just like, it would be like, if you didn't understand the concept of compassion, right? And then all of it, like, and then all of a sudden you start to kind of learn about it, and you're like, Oh, wow. This applies to a lot of different but you want to learn more, right, right, right? That's kind of how it is. I think with validation, it's just not something that's widely understood outside of maybe the clinical sector. But once you kind of start working with it, it's like, oh my god, this applies to everything. Right? 

Marcel Schwantes 16:06 

Okay, yeah, perfect. I mean, and I want to keep digging a little more here, because there's a quote then I when I read it, I'm like, Oh yeah, I got to read this on the air and have you kind of break that down. You mentioned, yes, we have human experiences that we could kind of all relate to. They're common in the work. So I'm going to drop a word, a word that's a hard word, suffering, okay, because it is a common human experience for people to suffer. So here's the quote you wrote. The greatest gift that comes from knowing how to validate others is the opportunity to find meaning in suffering. So break that down for us.  

Caroline Fleck 16:48 

Oh my gosh, boy. This gets this gets pretty personal again, because this just speaks to the core of kind of who I am, how I've gotten to where I am, yeah, and what I value, and so I suffer. I had, you know, I'd struggled with depression. I go on to be diagnosed with multiple sclerosis later on, then after that, just after writing the book, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And at each of these turns, it felt like any one of these things could sink me, and I saw the only way to survive those situations, I think, is to figure out a way to make meaning out of them. Otherwise, like you have to define it or it will define you.  

That has been my experience, and so just by virtue of having suffered, you understand that brand of suffering more, and that puts you in an incredibly unique position to validate others who are also suffering in that way. And therein lies community, therein lies connection, and therein lies healing in both directions. That was very much my experience. So oddly. I mean, as I was going through chemotherapy and all this stuff, I was continuing to see patients, and selfishly, a big part of that was for me, like I needed to use this suffering that I was having in a very kind of concrete and constructive way to connect with and understand and empathize with others. That sounds like lofty or weird, but it's, it's much I don't know it's, it's much more basic and simple than it sounds.  

Marcel Schwantes 18:36 

I think, yeah, thanks for sharing that that yeah, and, you know, it's funny, because so many of us, because of the shame, because we are steeped in shame, we shrink back from sharing those experiences that may, may be lifting up other people, but because we, you know, we in Brene Brown terms, Right? We wear the How does she say it? The hard shell, I forget the right, yeah, yeah, right, yeah. And we're afraid to show up a vulnerability. A lot of it is we're hiding behind shame. We put on masks, and we lose that such a great opportunity to step out of our comfort zone show courage and share our humanity, you know? 

Caroline Fleck 19:24 

Yeah, yeah, that's it's been very interesting doing the press around this book, because I wasn't, I mean, even after all of this, I'm still like, oh, I shouldn't really talk about my stuff, you know. Or even, like, on this podcast, there's a part of me that's going, like, ooh, am I freaking out? Listeners are people like this is too heavy, right? Like this is supposed to be about leadership or whatever. Like, What's she talking and, like, all of that self filtering, I don't know. Like, you gotta just I've really worked to try and put it aside, because when I do my experience again and again has been that, like, no people get it. People want to talk about what's really freaking going. 

Marcel Schwantes 19:59 

Odd, right? Yeah, you don't have to worry about that. Our most loyal listeners by now know that, right, right? We don't have, we don't wear masks in this in this show, it's our guest. They speak their truth.  

Caroline Fleck 20:12 

So I love it. Love it, yeah. 

Marcel Schwantes 20:15 

All right, so would this be a good time to transition to maybe some of the how, the How to the principles? Yes. Okay, all right, so I, I saw the validation ladder, and I don't know, would you say maybe that's a good starting point to kind of like, let's, let's go over that ladder. What does that validation ladder entail? There's so much to unpack there. 

Caroline Fleck 20:39 

Sure, if I can take it just one step back, because the ladder is this list of skills. You've got eight of them, and they're represented, you know, visually on this ladder to help you kind of understand how they relate to each other. But before even getting there, I talked about what validation is. But in my experience, it is equally important to talk about what it is not because people tend to get when they struggle with validating others, when they resist it, it's often because they're confusing validation with either agreement or praise.  

So to be crystal clear here, you do not have to agree with somebody to validate them. Okay? I often use the example of the fact that I am a vegetarian. I do not eat meat, all right? I can validate why somebody would make the decision to eat meat easily. I ate meat for most of my life, right? I don't agree with that decision now, but I can absolutely understand it, empathize with it. And if I'm just trying to connect with somebody, I'm not trying to necessarily persuade them. Yet, if I'm just trying to connect, that's all I need to do, right is, is just speak to the validity in what they're saying. The problem is, we've got this negativity bias, so we tend to really focus on what we disagree with and what we don't like, Yeah, but it's possible to validate somebody even if you don't agree, yeah, okay.  

That second piece is that validation is not praise. This is really important. When folks talk about you shouldn't seek external validation, what they really mean is you shouldn't seek praise. So praise is a positive judgment. It says, I like the way you look, I like the way you perform, good job. Great meeting, excellent report. All of that is praise. It is a positive judgment. Validation communicates acceptance. It says, I accept you independent of how you look or perform, if you're constantly seeking praise, that can absolutely become problematic, because in order to earn it, you have to exceed expectations, right? And so you're constantly having to filter or tweak or, you know, perform, outperform.  

And that's exhausting, and it can actually lead to a very hollow representation. You're just kind of putting this facade out there, right? And you get thumbs up and everything, but it's not really you. It's this distorted version of you, right? Yeah. That is not external validation. That is praise, all right? This is important, because in leadership positions at work, even with our children in our in our homes, it's possible to praise the work but validate the person praising the work says you did an awesome job figuring out the code.  

While you know, over Christmas break, you've put all this time into it, it's great. You fixed it. Amazing. Thank you so much. You're the best. That is all praise, all right, validation says, and it must have been really frustrating to come into the office when everybody else was on vacation for a week. Or you must be feeling burnt out. You must have been really overwhelmed working on this by yourself, having it all on your shoulders, right? That is validation. It speaks to the person's emotional experience. It says, I see you, not just I'm pleased with what you produced. Does that make sense? That distinction. 

Marcel Schwantes 24:16 

It is almost like praise wrapped in empathy. 

Caroline Fleck 24:21 

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's speaking to the person's experience, right? Yeah. It's like, I see you in this not just, I really like what you were able to produce. This product is good. Thumbs up, yeah. So that's kind of just the backdrop I wanted to provide before kind of discussing the how, right, if you don't have those pieces, it gets confusing. 

Marcel Schwantes 24:45 

That's very important, because I You mentioned something really key, is that if you create a culture of just handing out praise, then what happens on the other side is you have people wanting to collect the Praises to. Be in their bosses good graces. And I don't know that almost sounds kind of toxic, because now you're just outperform trying to outperform the your colleague next to you to okay, how can I get my boss to recognize me again? Right? Yeah, yeah, if I can one up my colleague, because I'm vying for the same position and we're both wanting that promotion, right? 

Caroline Fleck 25:25 

Right, right, right, right, right. It is. But like, that's the opposite of feeling accepted, right? You feel like you have to compete to belong. Now, it's one thing. If you need to compete in terms of the output that you create and you need to produce a better product. It's another if you feel like just to belong, just to feel safe, you have to compete. That is toxic within a workspace, within a family. It's toxic, yeah, right. And yet we slip into it so easy, and I would say even more easily these days, with social media and all these other kind of forces in our lives that are reinforcing us for distorting ourselves and for competing for praise. Yeah, 

Marcel Schwantes 26:06 

I love the aspect of belonging and inclusion that comes from valid, from validating someone the right way, right? Yeah, yes. Feel like they matter, like they have a voice in, yeah, that sort of separates everything. I mean, separates out from, from just praise, like you said, 

Caroline Fleck 26:29 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So should I do your the ladder? What do you. 

Marcel Schwantes 26:35 

if you want? Because I'm really interested in the skills. 

Caroline Fleck 26:38 

Yeah. So we have, okay, as I said, we've got eight skills, and we break them down into three groups. So you've got some mindfulness skills. Those are very basic and easy. You've got some skills that demonstrate understanding and then some that also demonstrate empathy. Yeah, here's the thing, you might not have understanding and empathy right out the gate. When someone comes to you, either with a problem or just you know, in your personal life, I'm thinking, if I'm standing across from a like staunchest political opponent, there's probably not that, not a lot that I empathize with, and depending on the opponent, I might not even logically understand where they're coming from, okay?  

So it's at that level, all I can do is bring that kind of non judgmental, mindful awareness, all right. So if I can't validate at a higher level, if I can't use one of the more powerful skills from those understanding or empathy skill sets, I can just pay attention, and I can pay attention in such a way that the other person does not feel judged by me. That's all we're trying to achieve with those mindfulness skills, and we've got two of them to help us do that. 

Marcel Schwantes 27:52 

Okay, so it's, it's really being present without any obligation to want to acquiesce to the other person's point of view. It's just, you're just being there to under you're just being there. Basically, it's being mindful, being present. And there's no strings attached to that. 

Caroline Fleck 28:11 

And I would actually maybe even it's interesting the way you frame that. I think I have always experienced using these skills as more of like a game that I'm keeping myself in check is really how I feel like I am neutralizing my judgments and keeping myself in the right headspace as I'm listening to this other person. That's really what I'm doing, interestingly enough. 

Marcel Schwantes 28:38 

Yeah, right, and that's important, because these days, well, thanks to politics and media and culture wars and all that we're choosing which narratives that we that we track with, right and that's killing dialog and respectful conversations. So I think that that this is really, really key to at least come to the table and check in with yourself. First, suspend your judgment, right? Because a lot of times we come in with the boxing gloves on. 

Caroline Fleck 29:12 

Yes, that's right, that's right. Well, here's, you know, my mentor said this to me years ago, and it's one of my favorite quotes. Do you want to be right, or do you want to be effective. All right, I think about that so many times in a day, because even if I disagree with my political opponent, let's say I really want to change how they think about whatever it is the situation is, I cannot get there by focusing on change straight out the gate. It just won't be effective. Okay? I know this from over a decade of working with folks who are struggling with very serious problems, who say and do and believe things that are really problematic.  

I know that the only way to affect change is by establishing and aligning. Science and signaling some degree of genuine emphasis on the genuine acceptance that's just, those are just the rules. I mean, you can, you can ignore them, but they will still apply. And what I see nowadays is most people just kind of ignore the rules, and they get really focused on they just want to be right, you know, and just give you the facts that they have that are right. And believe me, facts are their own problem right now, it's just that the way we're approaching these this conversation is not changing anybody's opinions. It's solidifying them, is what we're doing. 

Marcel Schwantes 30:35 

Yeah, right, right. A lot of confirmation bias is attributed to that as well, right? Yeah. Okay, so I think you mentioned their mindfulness skills. There's two of them. 

Caroline Fleck 30:45 

Yeah, there's two. Yeah, that's right. There's attending and copying. And I'll go to attend. It's a lot of the nonverbal stuff. It's, you know, proximity, being kind of close. It's how you listen, it's how you look when you listen. I should say, okay, nodding the head gestures. These are little signals that show that you're paying attention, all right? And then there's the second part to attending, which is so important, okay? And if you watch late night show hosts or really good interviewers, you might know once I tell you what this trick is. You might see them basically doing what I'm describing here, what I what I do when I'm attending is I ask myself, what's this person's point? 

 Like, you know, someone's talking to me, we're in a debate, or they're just, you know, unloading. I'm thinking, what's this person's point? And why does it matter to them? And how could I do a better job of making that point? All right, so it's just I'm solving for this two point riddle, two part ripple. I should say, I don't say anything. This is just like a little mental Sadko I'm doing, where I'm trying to solve for these pieces. When you listen in that way, it's remarkable. It's as though you are in a debate, yeah, like back in high school, you know, they have, like, debate teams, and you have to argue a position that you don't necessarily agree with, again, right? But you just have to construct the best argument you could. That's kind of what you're doing here.  

And the reason I want you to do that is because it will fundamentally change how you listen. You will ask different questions if you're trying to flesh out someone's position, if you're really trying to understand it, it interrupts your ability to focus on forming the rebuttal, yeah. It eats up cognitive resources needed to do that. Okay, so this is just, you play this in your head as someone is speaking, as you're listening, you're just trying to solve for that, Okay, couple that with some of those nonverbals, and that's just basic attending that's sending the signals that you're non-judgmentally paying attention. Makes sense? 

Marcel Schwantes 32:58 

Yeah, it does. And I would guess that I mentioned this in my introduction, that validation helps you to increase your influence. But so I want to play with that a little bit. Okay, because, yeah, a lot of times it's hard to convince people of something your point of view, if they think you don't understand where they're coming from on the other side of the fence. So, so that was fascinating to me, okay? And that goes again right back to empathy, active listening, being present, mindful and all that. So but talk about, why does validating others increase your own influence? And I think I just gave the answer away. But let's dig deeper on that. 

Caroline Fleck 33:45 

It's actually a fascinating series of things that happen there through validation that would make you more influential. One is that you're you establish trust, so once you've demonstrated that you really get it, that you see somebody, you know that they're kind of safe with you, that you understand they are way more likely to trust you and take your advice. I don't take the advice of my neighbor who knows nothing about how to repair cars. When he says, I think your engines on the fritz. You should get a new one. I'm not going to listen to that guy because that guy doesn't know anything about cars. He drives a bike and has never owned a car.  

If my other neighbor is owns the most reputable auto repair shop in all of Silicon Valley, and he says, You know, I've been hearing you pull out in the mornings and it sounds like you need a new engine. I'm going to listen to that guy because he understands, right, right? So you must demonstrate some degree of basic understanding, and if you can understand not just the facts of the situation, but also the person's emotions. Boy, now you're really in it. Now you've really got something to work with. Mm.  

So it functions to solidify trust and thereby increase your influence or ability to be influential. It is also incredibly reinforcing. It feels really good, all right, in much the same way praise does okay, but when you reinforce somebody with validation, let's take the example of the person who'd come in at, you know, to work over the holiday when everybody else was out because there was a problem with the code that they realized, if I am able to get in there and say, not only great job here, but man, that you must be feeling burnt out, I'm going to make sure that that will never happen again.  

You shouldn't have been put in that position. Yummy, yummy, yummy, yummy, yummy, yummy, yummy that tastes good, that feels good, and interestingly, it makes the person that much more likely to push themselves again in the future, to put themselves out there, to work hard, right? Because they have felt reinforced for doing so historically, in a way that really matters.  

Marcel Schwantes 36:14 

Yeah, that's good. Okay, so I want to jump into another topic. We talk a lot on this show about compassion as a leadership practice, right? But not enough about self-compassion and so I want to, I want to link validation to to self-compassion. How does, how does validation actually increase your ability to be more self-compassionate. 

Caroline Fleck 36:43 

Yeah. So as we were starting to go through you, we've got these eight different skills, and we talked about one which was attending, if you master them all, you also now have the tools to look at your own emotional reactions, your own thought process and see the validity in that. This might not seem like much, but this is so critical, because most of us were raised on some degree of invalidation. We've been told at various points in our lives that we shouldn't feel the way we feel, or that we shouldn't show it, or that there's something wrong with us, or that we're not doing enough, and we've internalized these messages, and so when things don't go well, our inclination is not to soothe ourselves, or, you know, look at the validity and our feelings. No, we come down on ourselves like a ton of bricks. If you know how to look at a situation and say, I can totally understand why I felt that way. It makes total sense that I was frustrated. I had every reason to be that is incredibly powerful. It is incredibly powerful.  

Marcel Schwantes 38:00 

Yeah, yeah. Do you have any techniques or just practical skills that we can utilize, sort of in the trenches? What I mean by that is, you know, I mean talk about workplaces that are collaborative. There is so much communication that needs to happen, right? So how does validation help? Maybe lessen conflict less than arguments and divisiveness, but also, you know, talk about what, how do we do it? What are those techniques? 

Caroline Fleck 38:34 

Yeah, so actually, that leads to the second of those kind of mindfulness components, right? So with we talked about there being eight skills. There's a couple that communicate mindfulness, a couple that communicate mind, mindfulness and understanding, and then a couple that do mindfulness, understanding and empathy. They're super powerful, but you may not be able to access them just on that basic kind of mindful, non judgmental piece. We have this skill called copying, and it is as basic as it sounds. It is simply to copy the body language of the person across from you and or kind of mirror the words that they use reflect back.  

Now I don't want you to do the super hokey I hear you saying you're upset about the TPS report, right? Everyone can see that from a mile away. It's not what I'm talking about. It's about plucking out kind of the keywords that people use and reflecting those back whatever adjectives, whatever descriptors, that's what they see as important. So when you respond and say, Yeah, that was ridiculous, right? If they had said ridiculous or whatever their keywords are, if you're reflecting that back, you're basically saying, I see what you see as important. Now here's the fascinating thing about copying, it activates mirror neurons. Me right? Meaning that when I copy you without my even realizing it or intending it, I will start to taste, feel a little bit of what you're feeling. All right? That is what mirror neurons do.  

And so through this very basic process, we have the foundation, the building blocks for empathy, which is why, if you don't understand or you don't empathize, you start with these two skills and you just work them until you understand, until you feel something that you can empathize with. And if you say Caroline, that's not going to happen. I will say, Please, listener, collect the data. Go out and use these skills, if you read this book, or even if you can just go off the podcast and use these two skills, I would be very, very surprised to hear you say, yep, nothing. It didn't foster any understanding. I didn't feel any increased empathy. In all my years, I have not seen that be the case.  

In fact, an evidence-based technique for managing conflict is to use what's known as the Rappaport method. We use this in couples therapy, where one partner speaks. I say they're fighting, I intervene. I say, okay, here you I want Person A to write down everything Person B said and then read it back to them verbatim. Okay, so they write down as Person A is talking, person B is writing, and then they read, and if they say, Did I get it right? And if Person A says, No, you missed this part, then they added, okay.  

Now, do I have it right? Yes, okay, now they switch turns, all right. 95% of conflicts are resolved just through that. It's like, I really wish I could create, like a some type of, like movie sequence, you know, like a montage of all these years of therapy, of, like, just doing this one technique, because it's so remarkable, people who are on completely different sides, folks who are on the brink of divorce, not that it kills their marriage, but just that, like these conversations that felt so entrenched to see those knots loosen is fascinating. And again, it's just as a function. It's just purely a function of copying. 

Marcel Schwantes 42:09 

Okay, I'm going to go out on the limp here and talk about generations, and whether newer generations, maybe these digital babies coming up, and maybe even Gen Z’ers, but even the ones that are coming up younger. What are those called now? The alphas? I think generation alpha. 

Caroline Fleck 42:29 

Oh my gosh. I don't even know where we are.  

Marcel Schwantes 42:33 

Yeah, they're going to enter the workforce probably in the next five to eight years or so. My point is, are we going to get to the point? I guess I'm asking you to look into your crystal ball, but maybe there's a research already. Are we going to lose the ability to know how to copy and mirror and understand body language and be able to use our EQ to pick up cues, right, body language cues, et cetera, because these kids that are growing up, they, I mean, I have a 12 year old, and He's on his device interacting with his friends and, you know, and, and, and to me, I have to always, always force him to have social interactions face to face.  

And it's, it's still an uphill battle these days, because even the educational system is pushing more devices on them, right and with AI and everything. So what do you think I mean? Is technology getting to the point where, because we're losing the ability to come, come into social spaces and community spaces, to dialog face to face, are we going to lose the ability to validate others through the things that we have mentioned so far. 

Caroline Fleck 44:05 

I mean, I'm in I'm in Silicon Valley, so I don't want to hate on technology. And yet, I think we're in a very, very scary, if not like, Pivotal, moment in history, because there's a lot that's threatening, the empathy, the capacity for empathy in the future. One of those forces is as we've described, as you're describing, like the apps, the social media. It is a praise, generating obsession. Seeking machine. That is what it does. And more people are spending more and more time on that. And as they do, we do not see loneliness decreasing. We see it increasing, right? We do not seek sense of connection. Increasing. Belonging increasing. It's all decreasing. It's. Right for the reasons you're describing you're not connecting with people, and for the reasons I'm describing, those connections that you do have are based on facades and praise, not acceptance and belonging.  

That's a threat, another huge threat, I hate to say it is AI, because AI will validate you, even if you don't validate it. So you don't have to be effective interpersonally to get the type of quote, unquote connection you're seeking. Usually, you there's a reciprocation that happens, and we develop these skills in order to maintain those relationships through that reciprocation process, I validate you. You validate me, right? Once, that's a one way street. You know, the person who's just receiving the validation or praise or whatever that they need, they don't have to develop the skills to communicate it back. And that is scary. Yeah, that is a threat. 

Marcel Schwantes 45:54 

It is. It is a concern for sure. Okay, speak to the founder or the CEO. I'm going to ask you to play Adam Grant, put on your organizational psychologist hat. Okay, so I'm a CEO listening, and I'm fully bought into this whole idea of validation to shape my company culture, right? What's a good starting point for me? 

Caroline Fleck 46:21 

One I want you to focus first and foremost on asking yourself, especially in the corporate space, asking yourself, when someone comes to you with an issue, should I respond with validation or problem solving? All right, since you're there to solve problems at work, we tend to immediately jump to problem solving. Let me tell you how you can, you know, speak to that colleague. Let me you should try this, and if that doesn't work, do this, right? 

Honestly, so much of the time when people come to us with an issue, what they are seeking is validation. They want to know that they that their perspective makes sense, that their emotions are valid, all right. Oh, if that's what's needed, open with that. Yeah, it's not always needed. There are times when you just need to get into like, you know, problem solving. And how do we remove this? But think flexibly about that. I really, really encourage listeners to just have that moment of pause. Do I validate here, or do I jump in and try and change how this person is thinking, feeling, or what they're doing? Because those are two very different responses. That's good. 

Marcel Schwantes 47:36 

All right, as we wind down here and transition to our speed round, which is the fun stuff. Is there something we have not covered that you feel our listeners absolutely need to know that we missed? 

Caroline Fleck 47:49 

No, I would just add that we got through two of those eight skills. So if you're like, Well, wait, I still don't understand how to validate here, that's okay. You've learned two strategies, which is attending that's asking yourself those questions, what's this person's point? And how do I do a better job of making it and then copying Right? Which is the mirroring body language and the words they use? Beyond that, we've got six other skills that provide even deeper, more profound levels of validation that I would encourage you to check out. So just in case you're like, I don't quite know what I'm doing here. This doesn't feel sufficient. There's more. And absolutely, 

Marcel Schwantes 48:23 

yeah, yeah. And get the book, folks and shoot. You know, that begs the question, should I make my podcast a three hour podcast? Because then we could fill in the other All right. Strap on your seat belt. Here we go. Ready? Okay, yeah, what are you reading right now? 

Caroline Fleck 48:44 

I'm reading a book called Murder Bot, which is a my husband's really into sci fi, so I'm reading murder bot and then remarkable people. It's the non-fiction I'm reading. 

Marcel Schwantes 48:57 

Okay, so I'm curious, and this is not off of the list that I was going to ask you, but now that you said that your husband's a big sci fi guy. What kind? Like Star Wars, you know, Marvel Comics, what? 

Caroline Fleck 49:09 

All, all of the above like, seriously, there's, there's very little. He doesn't, yeah, me, not so much. I'm not. I read a lot, but not, not as much into sci fi. But this one's good so far.  

Marcel Schwantes 49:23 

Good, good. Okay, someone that inspires you right now? 

Caroline Fleck 49:27 

Oh my gosh, right now. Who inspires me? Why is that so hard for me? The first person that comes to mind is this Buddhist monk, Thích Nhất Hạnh, although he passed recently, but I think that's probably the person I reflect on most in terms of how to carry suffering, how to use it effectively, and how to how to really. Work with it and help other people through it. 

Marcel Schwantes 50:02 

Right. Okay, there are many lessons that that we go through in life. What would you say is one that floats to the top?  

Caroline Fleck 50:11 

Do you want to be right or do you want to be effective? I like that. I mentioned, I mentioned that one before. It just rings in my head all the time, all the time. Do you want to be right or do you want to be effective? That's great. 

Marcel Schwantes 50:21 

That's great. That's great. Name a person dead or alive you would like to have dinner with? 

Caroline Fleck 50:27 

Oh, Gandhi, for sure. 100% like, no, there's a theme. I'm really into these very, like, peaceful, like, right? Nobel Prize winning guys. 

Marcel Schwantes 50:39 

That's very great. That's great. Yeah, he's on my list as well.  

Caroline Fleck 50:42 

Okay, who else is on your list? Sorry, do you mind if I. 

Marcel Schwantes 50:44 

Oh no, no, I got, I got Gandhi, MLK and Jesus of Nazareth. Oh, yeah. All right, yeah. All right, something nobody knows about you, and you've shared some intimate things. But what would be something else. 

Caroline Fleck 51:01 

Not many people know that I was a competitive baton twirler. Like, really competitive from the time that I was, like, I don't know, in second or third grade, like, up through high school, and so I spent most of my childhood in the gym. It was, like, competitive gymnastics, right, where those kids are at it, like, all the time that was, that was my life. 

Marcel Schwantes 51:23 

I don't know how, how did you do it? I mean, the way these girls twirl those things up 30, 40 feet, and then. 

Caroline Fleck 51:31 

Oh yeah, easily, yeah. 

Marcel Schwantes 51:33 

You still pull out the baton. Invested often.  

Caroline Fleck 51:37 

No, no, no. It's like the weirdest thing to be caught doing in your backyard. I don't know why, but it's like you looked out and saw your neighbor, like chucking a baton into the air. You'd be like, What the?  

Marcel Schwantes 51:49 

Yeah. All right, we wrap up with your biggest hope for 2025? 

Caroline Fleck 51:54 

Dialog. I hope for dialog. And I just, I want this to be year, the year that we've had enough. You know, it feels like things have just been reaching this, this boiling point, this breaking point, and I genuinely hope what breaks isn't our connection, isn't our humanity, but this constant. I'm right, you're wrong. Yeah, I just want us to get tired of it. It's so played out, and we're so much better than the fear that we're reduced to.  

Marcel Schwantes 52:30 

It is, it's so played it's everywhere now. I mean, you can't get away from it. I can't turn on the TV and watch the news without it. In fact, that's why I don't want it anymore. 

Caroline Fleck 52:41 

And we feel it. It feels so toxic, right? Like, let's just, let's just have something other than a fight or flight response 

Marcel Schwantes 52:51 

in these moments. That's great. All right, you've survived the speed round. Hey. Okay, we bring it home with two questions, as we do with every guest, here we go. The first one is the love question. So sticking with themes we've talked about or anything under the sun, how do I lead with more actionable, practical love, day in and day out. 

Caroline Fleck 53:22 

You must see empathy as a strength and a critical component of leadership, not a liability or boundary that's being crossed. Towards that end, you should see communicating acceptance and belonging as I don't care what position you're in as you know, an entry level employee or leader or CEO, helping people feel accepted and like they belong. That is what it means to love truly. 

Marcel Schwantes 53:55 

Yeah, in my opinion, love it all right, bring us home. What's that one thing you want people to take away from this conversation?  

Caroline Fleck 54:03 

Should I respond with acceptance? Should I respond with validation or problem solving? Should I try and change this person what they're thinking, what they're doing, what they're experiencing, or should I just say, I get it, I hear you, I see you. Which is going to be most effective in the moment? 

Marcel Schwantes 54:20 

That's great. All right, folks, the book, again, is called validation. There it is. If you're watching on YouTube and Caroline, if people want to get a hold of you, connect with you. Where can they go? 

Caroline Fleck 54:31 

Yes, they can go to my website. drcarolinefleck.com I've got a bunch of stuff kind of behind the scenes of the book as well. You can check me out on Instagram, TikTok, drcarolinefleck.com, and LinkedIn as well. 

Marcel Schwantes 54:44 

And I was just on her website. Let me tell you, it's full of awesome resources. So if you want to go in there and play around and download stuff, it'll keep you busy. So yeah, hey, it's been a blast. I'm so glad we did such a blast. Okay. Gosh, love these kind of conversations right up my alley. I know we're like kindred spirits. So really. 

Caroline Fleck 55:07 

Thank you so much, Marcel, this was a blast. 

Marcel Schwantes 55:09 

All right. Well, you can keep the conversation going on social media with #loveinactionpodcast and look at my show notes on my website, marcelschwantes.com, you can find all of Caroline's info there, as well as a YouTube if you prefer to watch our pretty faces interacting in the boxes. I'm going to make sure I have that link as well on my website, all of that at marcelschwantes.com. For Dr. Fleck and yours truly, remember in the end, love wins, we'll see you next time.