Elina Teboul: The Power of Feminine Intelligence

Episode recap:

Elina Teboul joined Marcel to discuss her groundbreaking work, as featured in her new book, Feminine Intelligence. Teboul reveals how feminine intelligence is the key to running some of the world's most successful companies ― with greater joy, authenticity, purpose and profit. Drawing on exclusive interviews with billionaire philanthropists, unicorn founders, and happiness pioneers, Feminine Intelligence uncovers the most powerful, often-overlooked traits that are driving the future of business. 

Bio:

Elina Teboul is a leadership expert who coaches influential leaders globally. She is the author of Feminine Intelligence: How Visionary Leaders Can Reshape Business for Good. Elina holds advanced degrees in psychology and law from Columbia University. She specializes in helping leaders navigate challenges, cultivate authenticity, and lead with congruence and purpose.

Quotes: 

• "Feminine intelligence is about bringing in feminine values and principles and strengths into business leadership." 
• "Powerful leadership isn't about efficient machines. It's about engaging our hearts, our souls, and our vision to create a better way of doing business." 
• "You can only take other people as far as you've taken yourself."  

Takeaways:

• Reflect on your leadership style: Are you balancing masculine drive with feminine qualities like empathy and intuition? 
• Practice a loving-kindness meditation focused on self-love to unlock your capacity for authentic leadership. 
• Explore how you can reshape your workplace culture by introducing more playful, relationship-driven interactions that encourage genuine sharing. 

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Book Announcement
00:47 Welcome to the Love in Action Podcast
02:00 The Problem with Current Leadership
04:36 Introducing Elina Teboul and Feminine Intelligence
06:31 Elina Teboul's Personal Journey
10:07 Defining Feminine Intelligence
16:04 The Importance of Congruence in Leadership
20:36 Examples of Conscious Leadership
30:38 The Role of Purpose in Leadership
33:18 Crafting Purpose in the Workplace
35:34 Introducing Psychedelic Leadership
36:11 The Psychedelic Renaissance and Mental Health
38:27 Psychedelics and Self-Awareness
42:37 Personal Experience with Psychedelics
52:42 Feminine Intelligence in Leadership
59:03 Speed Round and Final Thoughts

 

Conclusion:

Strong leadership today calls for a balance of qualities often labeled as both masculine and feminine—like clarity, empathy, and adaptability. Moving past rigid, results-only thinking allows leaders to create work environments that value people as much as performance. Skills such as emotional awareness, collaboration, and thoughtful communication are no longer optional—they’re essential. The leaders who stand out are those willing to grow personally and rethink old models of power and success. Real change starts with those who lead by example, not just by title.


Links/Resources:

Book: https://feminineintelligencebook.com/
Website: http://www.elinateboul.com/
IG: https://www.instagram.com/elinateboul/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elinateboul/

Transcript

Marcel Schwantes 00:05 

Hey guys, welcome back. Glad you are here, and if you're new to the show, well, thanks for joining us today. Grab a comfy space and a cool drink and look around, because we have all kinds of captivating conversations in our archives, so I hope you get to experience some of them. I mean it. I really mean it. I mean the kind of conversations that we have here on the podcast. To be quite honest, I don't think you're going to find anywhere else.  

Okay, so after today's episode, which I know is going to be thought provoking. Dive into some of the earlier ones, and I promise that you will not be disappointed. Okay, so as many of you know, if you're a regular listener or you follow me on social media, you know, I've said this a lot before. I believe that we are hiring and promoting, hmm, the wrong people. Can I say it? Yeah, I'm gonna, just gonna just kind of speak truth here. I think we are hiring and promoting the wrong people into the higher ranks of leadership, those people that sit in decision making chairs about who to select and you know and promote from within for those distinguished positions of power and influence, those people still hold on to this belief that certain traits, What I call, if you will, hyper masculine traits are still what we think, what we perceive to be qualifying traits of a leader.  

So what are we talking about here? Well, some examples, charisma, confidence. There's nothing wrong with confidence. We all need confidence, but sometimes we hire people with confidence, then they become overconfident, and then narcissism kicks in right dominance and control, excessive competitiveness, maybe somebody that is more of an individual or thinking just for themselves and for the team or for the betterment of the mission, okay? And perhaps we hire people to have this relentless push for results, results, results at the expense of relationships, at the expense of people. But I'm here to tell you that's still the norm in a lot of places, that we still look for these sort of false ideologies of what makes an effective leader in the year 2025 we are in the New World, folks.  

And so we're going to talk about some of the principles and ideas and practices in this new world that is disrupting the old guard, the very traits that we think lent to success on the job as a CEO, as a as a senior manager, are also the traits that we're finding will kill your culture and strip the joy out of people doing the work. So there's got to be a better way. So my guest today will propose a new way to lead, and she makes no excuses for it, because the evidence backs it up, and there are countless case studies of companies whose leaders lead through this approach. We'll talk about it in a minute.  

Elina Teboul is the author of a thought-provoking new book called Feminine Intelligence: How Visionary Leaders Can Reshape Business for Good. Elina reveals how feminine intelligence is the key to running some of the world's most successful companies with greater joy, authenticity, purpose and profit, drawing on exclusive interviews with billionaire philanthropists, unicorn founders and happiness pioneers, feminine intelligence uncovers the most powerful, often overlooked traits that are driving the future of business, and this is the way forward. So we're going to get into the discussion, and we're going to suggest that the future of leadership lies in embracing what we're going to define as feminine strengths.  

Elina Teboul is a leadership expert who coaches influential leaders globally. She holds advanced degrees in psychology and law. Yes, she is an attorney as well, from Columbia University. She's an expert in leadership development, having designed and led peer coaching programs and transformative workshops for senior executives across diverse organizations, she specializes in helping leaders navigate challenges, cultivate authentic. City and lead with congruence and purpose. These are things that we are going to talk about today. And Elina Teboul now joins us. Welcome Elina to the Love in Action podcast.  

Elina Teboul 05:14 

Thank you so much. Wow. What a great introduction. So excited to be here. 

Marcel Schwantes 05:20 

Likewise. So we start like this. You Ready? Ready? What's your story? 

Elina Teboul 05:28 

Oh, what a great question. Well, I always think that, you know, in the pivotal moments of someone's story, and I think the first pivotal moment would be December 5, 1991 when I was six years old, and my family decided to immigrate from Russia to the US, and so we kind of left in the middle of the night. I couldn't say bye to any of my friends. It was when the Soviet Union was collapsing and we moved to New York in pursuit of the American dream. And you can just imagine, right, all of the values associated with a family that I decide to do that, and all of the narratives that are ingrained in a child around you know, why? Why did we leave our home in pursuit of this American dream, and what does that mean?  

So I think that those formative years and seeing what my parents went through and the reasons they left Russia really formed a lot of what I believe today, and why, even though I, you know, advocate for a conscious approach. It's a conscious approach still to capitalism and why I'm really passionate about that as a as a system, because of what my family went through. And then I would say the second pivotal moment in my in my life, was the, what I call the intellectual awakening, and intellectual, because it wasn't yet like emotional and spiritual and embodied, but it was the first time that I kind of intellectually got it. And that's when I left my big law corporate practice and decided to move to the Bermuda Triangle. So I mean, this is a pattern. You see here. We have Russia, we have the Bermuda Triangle. I get all over the place.  

And so instead of getting lost, where the boats and the planes disappear, I guess I found my sense of purpose, and that's when I decided to work for a man called Alan gray. And Alan, he's sort of the billionaire. No one's ever heard of the in the in the Bill Gates and, you know, Warren Buffett kind of group, but yet, was extremely private. He's now passed away. But he genuinely cared about giving back and creating businesses that were forces for good in the world, and didn't like to talk about it. And so actually, in the book, is kind of the first time that his story is shared.  

But leaving big law in New York and going to work for someone like that was the first time I started to question and wonder, what's possible and what's, what is this idea of conscious leadership, and I think that sets the trajectory for my career. And then there's a third, kind of, last, Pivotal experience that I'll share now, which will set us up for some of the future conversations. But I'll just, I'll give a little intrigue that it had to do with me being in a sleeping bag with lights out, with very dark music, breathing very heavily in the Columbia University basement. 

Marcel Schwantes 08:59 

And I have the inside scoop on that already, because we talked before I hit record, so you guys will have to just hang tight until we get there. All right, so I said the words the title of your book, feminine intelligence, even as I say that, I know that some of some listeners are having a reaction to it, whether good or bad, so maybe let's put some definition around the term in your own words. What would you say is feminine intelligence? 

Elina Teboul 09:33 

Yes, and I picked this reason because I like to be provocative, and I like to for people to have a reaction. And you're absolutely right, Marcel, that people have immediate reactions to this word, and some are positive and some are quite negative, and that's exactly why I decided to use it. Now. Let's welcome the male listeners in and this is, this is not about men versus women. Feminine. This is not about gender. This is not about feminism, feminism, which is very important but really not my topic, actually, at all. And feminine intelligence is about bringing in feminine values and principles and strengths into business leadership.  

Now there's the archetype of the feminine and which is some of the things that you mentioned, the emotional space, the intuitive space, the creative space, the kind of maybe irrational but emotional place, the more receptive, if we think of the yin and the yang, the Yin kind of energy, and it's more relational than being individualistic, something that you mentioned as well, has to do with connection to nature and non-human life, which is extremely important for the business context. Now the male, the masculine archetype is, again, has nothing to do with gender, and it is about that linear, rational, logical metrics, focus based, profit driven approach to business.  

Now this is again me as a woman. Sometimes I'm in my feminine, sometimes I'm in my masculine. When I was working as a corporate attorney, I was so ingrained in the culture that I had to be pretty much entirely in my masculine because I believed and the what was measured and what was valued in the organization made it clear that me being in some of those feminine using those feminine strengths and values, was not going to get me ahead, and so I was dissociated from this part of myself, and that led to a lot of inner incongruence and misalignment and lack of purpose. I didn't have that language at the time, but I definitely sensed that something was wrong. And looking around at most of my colleagues, I also sensed that something was wrong.  

Now, I really love to use this metaphor as an example of what I mean, and it comes from it's a beautiful indigenous fable. But what they say is, imagine a bird, and this bird represents the bird of humanity. So it represents all of us. And for centuries, this bird has been flying with primarily one wing, which is the masculine wing, and so it's been stuck in the same flight path in society. We've been flying in circles. We're unable to really soar. And the hope is that in this 21st Century, that the feminine wing of the bird of humanity will finally fully extend, so that the two can find balance. It's not about the feminine being better than the masculine, because we can't fly with one wing of the feminine either. It's about the balance, and then once we find that balance, then the bird of humanity can finally soar. And so really, this book is a call for wholeness and balance on an individual level, on an organizational level, and on a societal level, 

Marcel Schwantes 12:59 

Yeah, and just to summarize now in my own words. So basically, the ideal state of good, effective leadership is to integrate both the masculine and, or really the best of masculine and feminine aspects, right? So each gender needs to integrate the best of the other gender is it? Is that? 

Elina Teboul 13:20 

Yeah and that actually, yeah, that actually comes from Carl Jung originally, which is when I, when I was doing my masters in psychology is what I found most interesting. You know, the father of modern psychology would and he talked about how men have to integrate the animal, which is the feminine aspect, and women have to integrate the animals, which is the masculine aspect, and so it is. You know, these words, a lot of times people say, Why are you using feminine? It's outdated. We don't need it anymore, but it is in our collective consciousness.  

We can't just ignore words and say they're not helpful anymore when we use them, but we use them as an insult today. When you call a man feminine, then that's some sort of insult and because still today, the vast majority of world leaders and business leaders are men, and our subconscious idea of leader is a man. If you ask ChatGPT A few questions, and you know you ask it would basically to draw a picture for you, it always draws like a man in a suit. And it's it always thinks I'm a man in a suit, which I find really interesting, because I do have a lot of that masculine, like energy and drive and efficiency in me. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing bad about that. But it comes at a price when we don't balance it out with a feminine aspect. 

Marcel Schwantes 14:43 

Yeah, and that's what I alluded to in my introduction, right? I mean, if you lead through more of the masculine parts of you, like drive, energy, assertiveness, etc., you're not. Broken and you're not. You don't need to be fixed. You just need to now integrate the feminine parts, if you will, of leadership, empathy, intuition, creativity, etc. 

Elina Teboul 15:11 

Yes, absolutely. 

Marcel Schwantes 15:14 

So I want to get into a discussion on man. This is good congruence. You already mentioned it, and you state in the book, and I'm going to quote you, so here it is, straight from Elena's book. Powerful Leadership isn't about efficient machines. It's about engaging our hearts, our souls and our vision to create a better way of doing business. It's about redefining what success means to us that can only be done with the power of congruence. So what's a good starting point here to unpack this idea of congruence, speak to somebody that may be just, just being introduced to what it means. 

Elina Teboul 16:03 

Great question, and this is really the start of my work with clients. In general. I always ask this question at first coaching session, when I meet someone and I say, what does success look like? Because people don't ask themselves that question. We have these assumptions around, you know, growth or promotions, and we just, of course, we all know what success is, but if you actually have to define it for yourself, it's really hard. And it's hard because we are often in this kind of hamster wheel of the status quo, because we're expected to react and do so efficiently, productively and quickly, and there is very little time for questioning and being in curiosity, receptivity and even like the unknown, then we just do what we're what's easy and what's known, and we react. And that's climbing up that ladder without actually knowing is that the right ladder that I'm climbing?  

So then you've climbed up all the ladder, and you look across and you say, Oh, wait, I should have climbed the other ladder. And what do I do now? And so the idea of congruence is it's, you know, people sometimes use the words alignment as well. Is to understand, you know, this first question that you ask me, What's your story? What are the roots and the values associated with your story? What are the subconscious narratives that you haven't thought about that are the results not of objective truth, but of your story that you haven't had time to analyze and process? And then how do you take that in and make business decisions that are heart centered and aligned with who you really are, as opposed to cultural, societal narratives.  

So very often, if you talk to somebody about their values and you try to unpack them, you realize that they're not really their values. Maybe they're their parents values, or they're their company's values. They're the values that they should have. But very few people take the time out to say, what is my story? What does success actually look like, and how can I live life in alignment and congruence? Now, what happens when we have difficult topics in business? For example, let's have an environmental initiative. It's costly, it's time consuming. It's distracting, but hey, we have to save the world.  

So when you're going to bring those kind of topics, what you need is courage, courage to stand up for your position, even though it might not make sense when you look at the spreadsheet, it might not make sense when you look at the numbers, and it's not welcome in the kind of masculine energy of the boardroom. And if you're going to really advocate for the things that the world really needs, the only way you have the courage and conviction to do that is if you're in full alignment with why you're doing it. And so many organizations you know, fail on a lot of great initiatives because they become this kind of, like, check the box exercise, oh, I guess we should do this, and we should do that. And so, you know, like, let's implement something, but it's not aligned, and it's not it's not driven by love, and it's driven by results and efficiency, and that's when they fall flat.  

Marcel Schwantes 19:21 

So really, when I know that I'm not being congruent, is when I fall out of line with, first my values, what deeply rooted in who I am, but also understanding what my mission in the world is, maybe my and we'll talk about purpose, and it's alignment. So I'm out of alignment with what my calling is in life, and now I am incongruent. Is that right?  

Elina Teboul 19:47 

Yeah, yes, absolutely. 

Marcel Schwantes 19:52 

I love the many examples you have in the book, a book about people that are leading through a conscious leader. Ship and exhibiting these, you know, what you call feminine intelligence, what's a good example of somebody that that has led this way, and had led, has led their companies this way? 

Elina Teboul 20:10 

Yeah, they and great question. And I love to start, actually, with an example of a man. Because people sometimes, you know, even though I start right away saying this is not about gender, people still assume that I'm going to only give examples of women. So I was very intentional to ask my dear friend and the man I respect very much, Raj Sisodia, to write the forward for this book. So that's that, so that it would be clear from your first page that I really am not talking about gender here. And Raj was the co-founder of the conscious capitalism movement, along with John Mackey, the founder of Whole Foods. So a lot of people probably heard this buzzword of conscious capitalism, but not everyone knows that it's traced back to two specific people who know, wrote the book initially called Conscious Capitalism, and really defined what they what they mean by it.  

And, you know, very similar to, you know that what you talk about on this podcast here, Marcel, is that it's about putting love at the center of organizations, instead of just putting profit at the center of organizations. And, you know, I actually, I realized that I did this, and it was subconscious that I wore this sweater here that says je t'aime, and I think it was for you to be right on brand here, yeah, um, and so they were, you know, John and Raj were the one of the first people who really articulated this approach to business and dare to use the word love in the context of a business, of how you define success in a business.  

And what's really important is that you know, we're not taking an unrealistic, utopian kind of stands here to say, profits don't matter. And, you know, down with business. I'm definitely not that person. I certainly respect business, and I think profits are the lifeblood, and we have to incentivize people. We have to motivate, motivate people. We have to pay people fairly. You know, creation and innovation is great, but and that's not everything, and it's possible to do good while also doing well, and to think about other stakeholders, and to think creatively about how we can create businesses that not only add value, but that also do good things for the world. So Raj and John are, you know, examples that I share in the book, and I think are fantastic leaders.  

And I will add that Raj wrote a book that most people don't know about, called Shakti leadership. And Shakti is the feminine aspect and the feminine goddess in Indian culture. And so he actually even identifies that capitalism was extremely in the toxic masculine and that it's imperative to bring the feminine energy into business leadership. And so when he wrote conscious capitalism, he was already thinking about the Shakti, energy, the life force the feminine, that has to infuse business with love and care and compassion in order to have a different way of looking at business. 

Marcel Schwantes 23:36 

I didn't know about that one. I brought him to the show a while back to talk about his the book that he wrote called Healing organizations. Yeah, it was just amazing. But so I'll need to check that one out as well. Yes, okay, I want to, and this is just a continuing the discussion on just the examples of high level leaders. I want to drop another name and give another shout out. Okay, you got to interview Lindsay Kaplan, and she is one of the, I think, a co founder of venture called chief. And I didn't know about chief until I read your book, so that's why I felt okay. We need to talk about chief. And not only that, but you facilitate, right? You facilitate chief core groups. So let's back up a little bit share the story of chief and how Linda and her co founder came about. Okay, you know, realizing that we need to do this and tie it into how they're transforming leadership around the world. 

Elina Teboul 24:37 

Love that. Yes, so maybe your listeners would be familiar with an organization called YPO, young president organization. So these, these kinds of organizations, are really intended for business leaders to come together, be able to have a kind of internal board of advisors where they meet in small peer led um. Groups on a regular basis where they can share their biggest challenges, figure out how they're going to define success, unpack their stories, lead with congruence and really be the best leaders they can be. Now what was the chief co founders realized was that there was no place like that that was for women, that was exclusively for women. And you know, having led a lot of these kinds of groups, the conversations really are different when it's a group full of just women, compared to when there's both men and women in the conversation. There are certain topics that just don't get brought up, that are really important for women to have a space to discuss.  

And so chief really was the first place where it was it's a members organization that is for senior executive women leaders who can join and be members. It's fascinating, because they are the fastest female led organization to have become a unicorn in the US. So they became a unicorn in, I think, two years, which is incredible. They have a huge waiting list, and over 60,000 members. And maybe 60,000 members, doesn't sound a lot, but actually, how many really senior executive women are there? And if you think about that number, is not that large. And so as a percentage of the kind of people who qualify for Chief membership, it's actually incredible how many women want to be part of this and so these chief groups that you allude to is exactly like, you know, a YPO circle, but YPO is actually entirely peer led, but chief decided that they wanted to be facilitated by an executive coach.  

And so I've led a number of these different groups, and I actually lead groups, similar groups for various organizations as well. I think that there is incredible, incredible power in peer coaching, where it's not just a one on one relationship, but you get the wisdom of the entire group and I think this is one of the most powerful models. And whenever I see this in organizations that implement this, I think it's really one of the most incredible ways to up level the organization. So this is, this is a real passion of mine, and what I write about in the book is again, about this idea of authenticity, and how a lot of these senior women, if you think about who's a senior executive woman today, it's someone who most likely is kind of like the second generation of women that that made it to these echelons of leadership.  

So I remember, you know, when I started in corporate law, there wasn't that many women ahead of me who were senior partners. It, you know, they were the first ones to kind of break that glass ceiling, and so they had a very specific experience of be, of having to be fully in their masculine they were told that they were only going to succeed on masculine terms because they were the first ones. And the entire structure of organizations wasn't created for them. So now these were the role models that a lot of the women of my generation kind of grew up looking at and wondering, well, is this how I want to lead, and is this who I want to be? And what are, what are my options here? And so we, we are able to come together and say the things that we thought only, you know only, I think that yeah. And then it's quite lonely, and all of a sudden to be able to open up the conversation and realize you're not alone, you're not the only one, and get the the tools and the perspectives of how to navigate certain situations was, is just extremely, extremely powerful.  

And having that internal board of advisors and that support system is is incredible. And, and I think again, this is such an example of leading with the feminine, because the masculine is all about me, individually and as in, you said this in your introduction, that the feminine, it's relational, and it's understanding that I succeed when those around me succeed, and that we succeed as a collective. And I think that this is really the approach that Lindsay wanted to take, because she realized that, you know, traditional networking was very transactional, actually very masculine, that you go into a place and you hand out some business cards, and it doesn't feel authentic. And if you can have this space where you can connect vulnerably and openly and safely, then you help each. Other to level up, and you with, with contacts, with support, with ideas. And so this is one organization that's really helping push women forward. 

Marcel Schwantes 30:08 

That's so good. Okay, we talked a little bit about purpose. We alluded to it. So, yeah, let's, let's just, I don't know, bounce back and forth here. We know that purpose plays a big role in success, and yet so many of us struggle, I think, with knowing their purpose. And even if we know our purpose, purpose, maybe as senior leaders and heads of companies, we don't think that is going to lead to profit, and so a workforce may just be going through the motions and not really understanding how their work ties to a larger purpose. There you go. So let's talk about how can we integrate both purpose and profits in our leadership. 

Elina Teboul 31:05 

I think many leaders are asking themselves the main question of, how do I inspire and motivate my people? And the answer to that really is purpose. Now one case study that comes to mind is Amy Wrzesniewski, who is a professor at Penn, and she developed a job crafting framework. And what was really interesting is she did this research, she went to a hospital, and she thought, okay, I'm going to interview people who certainly don't have purpose in their work. That was her assumption, janitors and so she thought, of course, all the janitors are going to hate their job, and that's, that's what I'm going to find.  

Nonetheless, she goes into this hospital, and what she realizes is that people were really in two buckets. There were some janitors who would describe, you know, their story, their role, what they do by the tasks they performed on a daily basis. So they would say that I clean toilets and I sweep floors and I change bed sheets and my job pretty much sucks. No surprise. The surprise was, though, that there was a second group of people who described their roles completely not by the actual tasks that they spend their time on. They would describe their purpose, and they would say that, actually, I'm a healer.  

And they would give the examples of sometimes they would move art around because they thought that it would make the patients feel more love and more joy to see certain pieces of art. They would say that they would watch who are the patients that don't get enough visitors, and they would spend more time in their rooms and chat with them as they did their work, or they would help to walk some of the patients out and help them to walk to go see family members that would visit. And they loved their jobs because they didn't see their job as a just a way to pay the bills, but they would see it as a calling. They had purpose. They were healers, and they were paid, being paid the same and they were working in the same company, and they were doing all of the same things, but because they were able to craft their own narrative around their work, they were happy and fulfilled and motivated.  

And imagine being, you know, the patient in that hospital, and which janitors Do you think that you want to be around? And we know that positive energy is extremely contagious, and being around negative energy could be really detrimental to your health. So actually, I'm sure she didn't take this a step further, but I would bet that if you measure the health outcomes of those patients, the ones that were surrounded by happy, motivated, fulfilled janitors, were probably doing better.  

And so I love this example because people think, Well, maybe you can have purpose if you're, you know, a social impact leader, or if you're working for, you know, the environmental nonprofit. But that's not true. And different people, again, this is like, we have to appreciate that there's no objective truth, but everybody's subjective reality, and somebody who wants to see themselves as a healer, if only given that opportunity, then they would be allowed to flourish. Because there could be, you know, you could imagine a hospital that says, No, you can't do that. Don't move the art. Don't touch that. Don't spend your time here.  

And so that's when you have to think about leadership. And are you creating the conditions that allow for people and that hopefully encourage people to craft their own narratives around their job, so that they can find that sense of purpose. So I think that there is the kind of, the easy converse, the conversation we hear more often about, you know, construct your narrative and construct your purpose. Purpose. And you know, we as an organization are going to do XYZ. We hear that, but I think that there's ways to implement it more on the ground with these kind of tactics, like job crafting.  

Marcel Schwantes 35:11 

Yeah, I agree 100% okay, so this is going to be a bit of a turn here. So go with the go with the flow, folks. Okay, we will connect the dots. The last chapter of your book is called psychedelic leadership. So let's ease into it gently for because a lot of people may be even skeptical, just like feminine intelligence right now, I'm talking about psychedelic leadership. Marcel, where you going with this? So what's a good starting point here for all the skeptics listening to introduce the topic of psychedelics in relation to leadership?  

Elina Teboul 35:50 

Yes, I think that probably by the time we're speaking today in, you know, 2025, most people have seen in, you know, in the economist in Bloomberg, in MIT Sloan, in Harvard Business Review, in all of these business publications, the conversation around psychedelics. And I think for most people, it's not new that there is this psychedelic Renaissance going on. And whether they know someone personally, maybe that's a stretch, but I'm sure that people have at least seen snippets of this in the general media. Now what most often is talked about is we know that, especially in the US, there is an enormous mental health crisis, and that psychedelic medicines have been shown by an increasing number of studies over the last few decades, from Ivy League institutions, from Harvard to John Hopkins, that they are incredible healing modalities for trauma, for PTSD for anxiety.  

And really, I believe that this is at the forefront of our, you know, mental health crisis, and the way that we're going to go forward in solving it. So compared to any kind of SSRIs, which are traditionally given to people for for any kind of those mental health issues we know, like, the research is very clear that psychedelics are, when safely intentionally used, are extremely effective in treating those conditions. So I think most people have sort of heard some of that before.  

Now the conversation that's happening more in you know, what I would call psychedelic academic circles and, and I think that's important to make that distinction about, you know, psychedelic academic circles and what people might associate with, you know, rave culture or recreational use, or, you know, things that people get really worried about because they think of, you know, the 60s and hippies and, you know, people kind of jumping out of windows, and I understand that people could be really scared, because there's, you know, misconceptions from, from, you know, the history of psychedelics, but in the kind of academic circles and all of the research what, what we're talking about Now is that beyond just solving a mental health problem, or beyond somebody that's had an experience, maybe you know a veteran with PTSD beyond that, what psychedelics do because of the way that they interact with our brain is that they really help us with self-awareness, with relationships and empathy, with creativity and with connection to nature.  

And those are kind of the four elements that I that I write about, specifically now for self awareness, safe, intentional, guided use of psychedelics is, you know, one journey is worth 10 years of talk therapy. We do know now that talk therapy is limited, and there are so many things that are stored beyond our conscious awareness that we have suppressed, that are subconscious, that are actually in our physical body that we can't access by just talking about it. And so the so the research really shows this understanding, this unpacking of exactly that, you know, Marcel, that first question that you said, like, what's your story? Who am I? And this in these are really important questions for people to connect with.  

And again, you're not going to get those answers if you are taking psychedelics in an unsafe, unstructured way, this is a compliment to you know, whether it's a therapist or a coach or a guy, but someone who is experienced and knows how to handle these medicine medicines, the you know, the right dosage. And really is, is doing this with respect and safety, but incredible for self awareness, incredible for relationships and empathy and actually being able to have the flexibility of mind to understand other perspectives. So what happens when you take psychedelics? And we know this from brain imaging studies is that your brain fully lights up. So if you imagine your brain as a city, then you know you're just in the center of the city, and you don't know what's on the outskirts.  

And then the psychedelics come in, and they're kind of like city planners and architects, and they start building roads, and they put up traffic lights, and they start building bridges, and all of a sudden you're able to travel to parts of your brain that were never activated before. So this is called neuroplasticity, is that you're able to create new neural pathways, and your brain is just like able to process so much more information, is so much more creative. Well, to you know, we the ideas that we believe that are so kind of stagnant is because we're using the same neural pathway over and over. Now, if we break that neural pathway and we create a new one, we're all of a sudden able to not be so rigid, and we're able to be more flexible in the way that we think and we feel and we approach others. So these are some of the ways that, of course, like the things we mentioned, are integral for leadership. Like it, leadership, I always say, is autobiographical, so that self-awareness is absolutely key. The relational intelligence and the flexibility of mind and the creativity is fundamental.  

And the last one was connection to nature. So there's a lot of studies that show that, especially when we interact with plant medicines such as psilocybin, which is the active ingredient in magic mushrooms, that people are more nature and climate conscious, and again, not in that check the box way, but in a felt belief and understanding that we are part of nature, that we're not separate from nature, and we get a genuine felt desire to protect nature, and obviously that, you know, when properly Integrated can lead into how you run your business in a climate conscious way. 

Marcel Schwantes 42:25 

Okay, so what's been your experience with psychedelics? How has it changed you? 

Elina Teboul 42:31 

In all of those ways. 

Speaker 1  42:34 

Pick one. 

Elina Teboul 42:35 

In all of those ways. Well, the story that I tell in the book is actually about this climate consciousness point. So I was working with an organization called the earth Law Center, and being a lawyer, I was really interested in this, and the earth Law Center is a nonprofit, and basically we are nature's lawyers. So nature can't pay you to sea turtles don't yet have a bank account, even though I hope that our crypto friends can fix that, I think, I think we can have nature have a bank account. We are working on that. But for now, we're a nonprofit, and the kind of work that we do is it's called rights of nature. So we try to give rivers and oceans and certain species legal rights so that they have standing, so that environmental groups have standing in order to bring certain cases to court and be able to protect, protect Earth.  

So I was working with this organization as a coach, with their executive director, with the board, but I wasn't kind of deeply involved in their work, and I had this experience that I described in the book with psilocybin mushrooms, which was unexpectedly but all around nature. And I remember just sitting on the floor. And my guide at the time, she brought me these mushrooms. And they weren't even chocolates or anything. They were like fully dried mushrooms. And when you look at them, you know, you realize it's just not scary at all, because they look just like the shiitake mushrooms that you can get at the grocery store. They're like, friendly little things that grow in the ground. And from a rights of nature perspective, I think that the mushrooms and mycelium networks need to have rights, and it's nature's way of actually communicating with us and so and it's ridiculous actually that we make them illegal.  

Because imagine you look outside and you see a tree, and you decide to declare that tree to be illegal. And it's like the hubris of humanity that we think that we can do this, but so, so I remember looking at these, these mushrooms, and I picked out a couple that spoke to me, and usually takes 3045, minutes before, before they kick in. And I remember I. Wanted to feel like creativity, so I kept looking up at the sky. And, you know, they always say Father sky and Mother Earth. And they think we have this natural again, like, this masculine tendency to be, like, looking up and like, let's colonize Mars. Like, let's look at the sky and what's out there instead of what's in here. What it like while we're so busy colonizing Mars, we're not busy enough saving our own home and our own planet. Yeah, and then when, when I started to feel the effects, instead of looking up, I went all the way down.  

And actually I laid on the ground, and I had to put my entire body. I had to really, like feel her. And I remember all the plants around me, just like coming in, and it was kind of terrifying, because I felt like they were looking at me and judging and saying, like, what are you gonna do? And I felt like the rage and the pain and like of Mother Earth, and I was just crying for her, for like, the guilt of like, how what are we doing? And they had this huge sense of responsibility. And I think that this is why, also, you know you have to be safe in the moment with having someone there who knows what they're doing to guide you, but even more so when, when you have these experiences, it's one thing to have it, but then it's another thing to integrate and do something about it, and to have someone hold you accountable.  

So in that moment that when I was, like, experiencing everything, and I thought, well, what am I going to do? And I thought of the earth Law Center, and he was like, Well, you're a lawyer, and actually, like, there you're already working with this organization. So like, you gotta do more. And you know, the next day, my guide was like, What time are you calling for them to say, like, I want to do X, Y and Z with you. Like, she held me accountable. She guided me and I think that was really powerful too. Is just to not just feel it, but then integrate it and do something about it. So, so today, I'm on the advisory board of this organization and really helping them.  

And I it's not like one of these philanthropic have to do things. And as I said in the very beginning, when you asked, What's your story, and I said, well, the second pivotal moment was my intellectual awakening working with Alan in philanthropy. That's what it was. It was an intellectual understanding that this is the right thing to do. It wasn't a felt experience. Having this experience is an extension of who I am, and that's that congruence, and that's what gives me the drive to continue to move forward, is because this was completely embodied and authentic. And it's not like somebody you know told me that I should be doing this, but it's something that is so deeply driven from this experience, so that that's one of the examples that I share.  

Marcel Schwantes 47:55 

Ah, man, that is so good, such a great story. And I'm a firm believer, but it wasn't in the power of psychedelics to heal things like post-traumatic stress disorder and other severe mental health illnesses. The research backs it up that in one or two sittings you can overcome all of that you know, better than 100 counseling or counseling sessions, or, you know, trips to your cycle, psychiatrist, psychotherapist, whoever. But it wasn't until your book that I started to tap into, okay. How does this apply to leading through congruence and becoming more authentic. And I'm becoming more of a believer in that one of one of the business owners that I know personally in town, he had an experience with psychedelics, and he was very much what we've been describing as sort of the hyper masculine person that doesn't have the feminine parts integrated in him.  

And let me tell you, it changed him. He is more empathetic. He is much better listener. He's more compassionate. He is just in tune with the world now, whereas before, it was just, you know, run through run through walls, run over people, just, you know, get it done. I don't care who's saying what, you know, it's just my way or the highway kind of thing. And now he's just a completely different person. So, and I see that and how that that has made him a better leader and a better business owner, even in how he interact with his customers, has made a huge difference. So, wow. So we're on to something big here.  

Elina Teboul 49:54 

I love that, but I'll say to you that it's really all about your intention. And approaching this with respect. So I do think that, you know, if you look at Silicon Valley, where this is, you know, old news, there are situations where it becomes extractive, and it's used only as a productivity tool, and it's only used to almost feed, kind of the narcissistic narrative. So there's one thing about psychedelics, is that they kind of accentuate your current states. And so there are amplifiers of whatever is going on for you. So if you do have some narcissistic tendencies, there are situations in which that's even more amplified, and there becomes this situation where, you know, you think that you've had a revelation, you know, something that other people haven't had.  

And this does happen on psychedelics, because it's very spiritual experience, and all of a sudden you're like, wow, I've stepped out of the matrix, and I understand something that I didn't before, and that people who've never had this experience don't it's kind of like having a child before you've had it. You just, you don't know what it's like, and you don't know what it unlocks. But there are situations, I think now where, where it's becoming a little bit extractive, and then the capitalistic model is, you know, feeding off of it. My biggest worry is that there will be drug companies that, you know, in the fight for legalization, which I think is extremely important, but that want to instead of having, you know, our insurance model is not really set up for these big experiences.  

What we're set up for is, you know, you get a little box of pills from the pharmacist. You go home and you take them every day. So now there are, you know, drug companies that say, Well, let's take the spiritual component out of this, and let's, you know, have them in the little pill form. And you just, you know, you take it every day. And who is that good for? That's really good for the drug company that's now selling you this, but it takes away a lot of the, you know, the spiritual element. And actually, I believe that the you know, our move away, our move towards a secular society, is part of what's causing the mental health crisis and the loneliness and the disconnection is like we're losing that sense of, you know, back to the idea of purpose, but we're losing a sense, also of a connection to the divine.  

And I think that's why these medicines are so special, because it helps us to reconnect with that and so I think that there's nuance and in these conversations, I'm, on one hand, the biggest advocate, but at the same time, I'm always saying yes and under certain conditions. So you know both, both are true. 

Marcel Schwantes 52:48 

Yeah, yeah, alright. I want to bring feminine intelligence back into the picture from a cultural standpoint. And we have a lot of listeners that are executives. So speak to that person, and let's say they're buying into this notion that feminine intelligence can really reshape our company culture and good things can happen. What would you say is the first step for that CEO to start shaping that kind of culture. What's the first step? 

Elina Teboul 53:25 

I think the first step is always for that CEO themselves. So step one is modeling certain behaviors, and what it what are you going to measure and reward? Right? Like, what are the signals that you're sending within the organization of the expectations. And it's really hard for, you know, Junior and mid level people to have certain behaviors if they're not rewarded by senior leadership. Or senior leadership is again, incongruent, and says, you know, I say this, but actually I act this other way, and I reward and measure all the other things. So I think it's first, like a deep reflective look at yourself and into how the organization is run, and who's being promoted and for what. So this is, this is just like the first reflective piece.  

And then I do think that it's, you know, instead of it being top down, where it's hierarchical and the CEO just dictates everything, most of the brilliance and the ideas come from the people, right? Like, again, it's relational, and it's, it's bringing everyone in. And, you know, one example I use from the book is, so I interviewed Lorna Davis, and Lorna was the chief manifesto officer for Danone, which is the French dairy brands that makes yogurts that probably everybody's familiar with. And Danone is really interesting because they were the first multinational to decide to become a B Corp. And for anyone who doesn't know what is a B Corp, it. Is basically a moniker that you get which helps, which after you meet various certain criteria.  

So maybe a lot of CPG brands want to be B Corps, because, you know, you're at the grocery store and you're choosing between your yogurts, and you think, Oh, well, I see that B on the Danone brand, and you know, they're doing good things for the world. So I'll choose that one instead of something else. And in order to become a B Corp, it's actually a very lengthy and difficult process. And it was always thought that B Corps would be more for startups, because as they're starting up, they can just follow that as a blueprint for going forward. It wasn't really expected that's a huge organization would take the very time consuming and costly process of like restructuring their entire organization to become a B Corp. But Emmanuel Faber, who's like the kind of Steve Jobs of France, he decided to take Danone on this journey, and he tapped Lorna Davis as his chief manifesto officer to help make this happen.  

And she told me this really cool story of how, you know, initially, when she first started at work, she would, you know, wear these power suits and try to be really, you know, like, show her strength and be fully in her masculine and that it took a while for her to realize that she doesn't have to be this way anymore. And she talked about a conference that she helped put together at in in avion. It was the annual conference of all the managers. And she thought, Well, how do I get all of these different managers of all of these different departments to actually, like, teach each other what's working and what's not working.  

Because if you ask someone to get up and do a PowerPoint presentation, they're not going to do it with all the failures. They're going to just tell you a couple of high points. They're going to hide all the real juice of what's going on in the organization. Like death by PowerPoint never teaches anyone anything, and we know that, but this is how we run our organizations. And so instead, she took the feminine approach, and she said, Okay, I realized that when I see people talking like at the water cooler and just chatting away in a natural way, that's when they open up. That's when they are able to say, Oh, I tried this thing and it didn't work. And here's all the reasons, and they're much more real and helpful than when they're, like, doing the big presentation. And so she took it even a step further, and she said, Okay, everybody has to come dressed as a Disney character.  

So now you had all of these senior managers dressed up, like, as Jasmine and Snow White, and they had like, these boas and these fake mustaches. And she just made it fun. She just let people just, you know, drop the mask and just relax and be playful, because we're so afraid of joy and playfulness and creativity. But, like, that's again, that's that feminine side that allows us to, just, like, let go and be in the flow. So she put everybody at ease, because they come in these costumes, they're joking around. But then everybody had their booths, like, each department had their boots, and they would go and they would speak, and they would learn, and they would be like, and then we did this, and it was terrible. It didn't work. We made this huge mistake, and then we did this other thing, and it was real and honest.  

And people learned so much. And, I mean, like, she describes like, after that, like it was just such, like, you could see the numbers, you could see the progress. Like people were really learning and implementing and changing things and that that's like, one example of like, for a CEO that's leading an organization is to just step outside of the box and like, think beyond the PowerPoint presentation. Think beyond the way that traditional business is always run, like, how can you gamify things like this? Is what's happening with AI now with education, with everything, is worse that we understand that humans are best in in kind of like joy and playfulness and you and they feel safe to fully express. And that's how we learn. And so, you know, just, just think about what makes sense for your organization, but think outside the box of like, how you can design the, you know, learning and connection moments to really bring out the best in people.  

Marcel Schwantes 59:15 

Yeah, okay, as we transition here to our speed round, I want to make sure I ask this question, because I don't want you to go away going I wish Marcel had asked me this question. So is there anything that we have not covered that our listeners absolutely must know? 

Elina Teboul 59:33 

Um, no, I think you've done a great job. 

Marcel Schwantes 59:38 

All right, we'll strap on your seat belt. Speed round here we go, a book you absolutely must recommend right now. 

Elina Teboul 59:49 

So I don't know the book that comes to mind is actually Anna Karenina, and it's my favorite book, and it's, I don't know if I recommend it normally for business leaders, but when I think of my favorite book, I think of something that takes me on a emotional journey Far, far away. And I read a lot of business books, but sometimes, again, it's like wanting to be in that feminine flow. And I think that reading fiction is often overlooked because we're so busy trying to find the answers. But I think that the psychology perspective, the you know, psychedelic perspective, is that sometimes the answers are within you and actually allow yourself to go on a journey, allow yourself to feel inspired, and don't necessarily, you know, always pick up the left brain book that tells you how to be a good leader, but allow yourself the possibility of play and read fiction too. 

Marcel Schwantes 1:00:52 

I know that we've learned, learned lots of lessons in life. What's a good lesson that you've learned in your own life? 

Elina Teboul 1:01:00 

I think the theme that's come up a lot in this conversation, and that I think is one of my most valuable lessons, is that there's just no objective reality that we're so sometimes wedded to our positions and that is the center of conflict and anxiety. And just to understand that every person has their own subjective understanding of the world. And whenever you know as a leader in business, you always will have conflicts with people. And if you can do more listening than talking, and put yourself in a place of compassionate curiosity, and just say, I don't believe what Marcel is saying is true. But that's not the point. The point is, Marcel believes that what he's saying is true. And so why is that? How can I put myself into like, that subjective reality of Marcel, to fully understand where he's coming from and investigate it and ask questions, and only then can I start to, you know, advocate for my position, because I fully understood, you know, where they're coming from. And so I just think that being more detached and understanding that there's so much that we don't know, and there's no no like, objective truth that's worth fighting for and then it allows you to be more flexible and curious. 

Marcel Schwantes 1:02:24 

Who is someone that inspires you right now? 

Elina Teboul 1:02:28 

Oh, so many people inspire me. Um, I'm, I'm really inspired actually, by Esther Perel. I think she's incredible. She's, uh, she's a relationship expert for people who don't know often talks about kind of relationships in a marriage context, which are really interesting. But I think that that work is really useful for also, like, I coach a lot of co founders and kind of, you know, teams, and I think that that relational intelligence is extremely important. And it's, it's, again, a lot about just like curiosity of other people. Because, you know, the feminine is very relational, and it's just understanding that you as one person can never accomplish anything, and that life is about inspiring, convincing and bringing others on board. And you know how what are the tools to do that. 

Marcel Schwantes 1:03:22 

Name a person dead or alive you would like to have dinner with. 

Elina Teboul 1:03:27 

You know, I just watched, like yet another one of those reels of Elon Musk, and I feel like this is just such a cliche answer, but I really want to hang out with him. But I don't, I don't know if I want to have dinner with him. I think I want to sit with him under a tree and just like, in silence and maybe with mushrooms, and just see what happens. Like, just see what he says, and like, understand what's like, compassion and curiosity. I'm like, I just want to know what's going on in that head. 

Marcel Schwantes 1:04:00 

Your biggest hope for 2025? 

Elina Teboul 1:04:07 

There’s a few, but I think, you know, because we had the psychedelics conversation, I really do hope for legalization, because I think that this is a like an unlock for a lot of other societal issues. So I'm very passionate about the environment. And so there's, you know, environmental things I hope for, but I do think that nothing can happen on a societal level when people are, you know, suffering and when people are disconnected from themselves. And so I think that, again, because psychedelics is such a way to get at the heart of each and every person and unlock certain things. Legalization will ensure that their safety protocols, that you know, the substances people get are safe and not, you know, like underground things, which I really, really worry about. So I think. That that I really hope for legalization. 

Marcel Schwantes 1:05:03 

Yeah, get it off schedule one, right? Yeah, yeah, okay, alright, so we bring it home with two questions, as we do with every guest, and the first one should be a slam dunk for you. How do I lead with more actionable, practical love, day in and day out. 

Elina Teboul 1:05:22 

Such a good question, and I think it starts with self love. We're sometimes so focused on, how do I lead with love for others, but we miss that first critical step. And I think a lot of leaders are actually driven by fear and driven by hyper achievement and driven by this like relentless need to prove something to other people. And I've noticed through with all of my clients, that for the highest achievers, self love is the hardest. So there is a really incredible meditation that's a Buddhist meditation, and it's called loving kindness meditation, and it starts with and because that's so hard sometimes, if you go to, like, a center or something, and they make you do this loving kindness meditation, they'll skip that part, and they'll go straight to, you know, picture someone that you really love, and now you picture your, you know, child, or your dog or something, And it's so easy to wish them loving kindness, but it's so hard to do it for yourself. And so this is really the where I want people to start, because before you can, you can't. You can only take other people as far as you've taken yourself. So allow yourself to feel and to explore and to know, to feel that love for yourself, so that you can then much more authentically and genuinely, you know, expand it to others. 

Marcel Schwantes 1:06:50 

All right, well, you close us out. What's that one thing you want people to take away from this conversation? 

Elina Teboul 1:06:59 

That the journey starts with them that you know, this book is really written with, with the ideal of social impact and of creating a society that, as I said in the beginning, when you, when you for the bird of humanity to finally soar, is, is the big ideal. But in order for that to happen, each individual person, you know, they have to do their own inner work. So I very intentionally, in the book, every chapter has three questions at the end of it. So if you do read the book, please use the questions as an opportunity for, you know, free coaching, and then take a pen and actually write the answers to the questions. So very often, if there's questions in a book. We just read them, and we continue on, but they'll have a lot more value if you do it. And only when you, when you actually start to unpack some of these topics for yourself, is when you can, you know, raise that personal consciousness, that you can create a conscious organization. Mm, 

Marcel Schwantes 1:07:57 

well said, Folks, I don't care who you are, male, female, where you sit in the hierarchy of your organization. Get this book, feminine leadership. How visionary let me do that again. Feminine leadership, how visionary leaders can reshape business for good. 

Elina Teboul 1:08:19 

Well, can you do it again and say feminine intelligence?  

Marcel Schwantes 1:08:23 

Feminine Intelligence. Here we go. Okay, the book again is called Feminine Intelligence: How Visionary Leaders Can Reshape Business for Good. If people want to connect with you, learn more about you, what you do, where can they go?  

Elina Teboul 1:08:39 

Yes. So I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram, and so that's just my name, Elina Teboul, E-L-I-N-A, surname is T-E-B-O-U-L, and that's also my website, elinateboul.com and you can get the book anywhere, any bookshop that you that you get your books. 

Marcel Schwantes 1:08:58 

This is one of those conversations that I have been looking forward to for weeks. And I mean, every day I'm checking off, okay, is it? Yeah, it's coming. It's coming. Here we are. I think this is such an important conversation that we had, and bringing psychedelics into the discussion is also needed, and we need to expand our understanding of what that is and how it can benefit society as a whole. So appreciate you being with us and hanging out with me today. 

Elina Teboul 1:09:31 

Thanks so much. Was a real pleasure to be here.  

Marcel Schwantes 1:09:36 

You can keep the conversation going on social media with #loveinactionpodcast, and look for my show notes on my website, marcelschwantes.com you can find Elina's information there, as well as the YouTube to watch this very episode, all of that stuff is at marcelschwantes.com. For Elina Teboul and yours truly, remember in the end, love wins, we'll see you next time, folks.