Hans-Werner Kass: McKinsey & Company’s Step-by-step Approach to Transforming Leaders

In this episode, Hans-Werner Kaas, senior partner emeritus at McKinsey & Company and co-author of The Journey of Leadership: How CEOs Learn to Lead from the Inside Out, discusses how empathy, vulnerability, and purpose define successful leadership. Drawing from his decades of coaching global CEOs and his role in McKinsey's Bower Forum, Hans-Werner emphasizes that true leadership starts with self-awareness and the ability to form meaningful connections.

Hans-Werner challenges the outdated notion that leaders must always be the smartest or most authoritative. Instead, he argues that vulnerability is a strength, fostering trust and openness in teams. By sharing personal struggles, embracing feedback, and admitting mistakes, leaders build bonds that enhance collaboration and innovation. He also highlights the importance of empathy, noting that immersing oneself in others’ perspectives creates trust and inspires purpose-driven cultures.

The Bower Forum’s model is presented as a practical framework for leadership development. It encourages leaders to create personal “commitment plans” focused on self-growth, team leadership, and organizational impact. Hans-Werner shares stories of CEOs who transformed their leadership styles by adopting empathy and a willingness to learn from failures. He advocates for “fearless learning,” which involves questioning assumptions, adapting to new realities, and using setbacks as growth opportunities.

Key takeaways include:

1. Reflect on Leadership Style: Examine how you respond to mistakes and feedback. Identify one behavior to improve trust with your team.
2. Build Genuine Connections: Engage in meaningful conversations to understand team members’ perspectives and challenges.
3. Challenge Long-Held Beliefs: Reevaluate assumptions and explore how adapting them can lead to better decisions.
4. Practice Fearless Learning: Analyze setbacks without assigning blame and outline actionable steps to improve.
5. Create a Commitment Plan: Define goals for leading yourself, your team, and your organization, and revisit them regularly.

Hans-Werner’s insights demonstrate that leadership success today hinges on authenticity and emotional intelligence. By fostering a culture of care, trust, and adaptability, leaders can create resilient and high-performing organizations. Vulnerability, self-awareness, and empathy are not just traits of effective leaders—they are essential for building thriving teams and achieving sustainable success.

Links/Resources:

Website: https://www.mckinsey.com/

Bower Forum: https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/people-and-organizational-performance/how-we-help-clients/mckinsey-academy/executive-programs/bower-forum

Book: https://www.amazon.com/Journey-Leadership-CEOs-Learn-Inside/dp/0593714210/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hanswernerkaas/

Transcript

Marcel Schwantes 00:08

Hey guys, welcome back to the show. Glad you are here. Thanks so much for joining us today. Now, if you follow my writings and thought leadership, you know I just I cite a lot of research right to inform my own work, and really to help point people in the right direction, whether they're clients or my readers, My followers, etc. So one of those wells that I draw from, if you will, is the great global management consulting company McKinsey and Company. And you know McKinsey, I mean, the biggest companies in the world turned to McKinsey and Company for learning and transformation, right? 

Marcel Schwantes 00:50

And so with that said, four of McKinsey's senior partners decided to write a book and give its global readers a first ever sort of a look behind the curtain, if you will, at McKinsey, step by step approach to transforming leaders, both professionally and personally. And that book is called The journey of leadership, how CEOs learn to lead from the inside out. It was released back in September, and in this book, the authors share how leaders hone the psychological, the emotional, and ultimately the human attributes that result in success in you know, today's most demanding top job, the CEO of the organization. 

Marcel Schwantes 01:43

So we were lucky enough to nab one of those senior partners to talk with us today, Hans-Werner Kaas will join us shortly. Hans-Werner is the CO dean of the CEO leadership program the Bower forum, a former member of its global client Council and a senior partner emeritus at McKinsey. Hans-Werner works and counsels CEOs and leaders across multiple industry sectors globally. And Hans-Werner Kaas finally joins us, and he's here right now. Hans-Werner, welcome to the Love in Action podcast.

Hans-Werner Kaas 02:23

Thank you, Marcel. And big thanks for hosting me, representing my dear friends and co author colleagues here, but also more broadly, what we have learned within McKinsey, having worked with CEOs over many years in our CEO program, which you already referenced the power forum. We'll have a chance to also talk a little bit about it.

Marcel Schwantes 02:44

Absolutely, can't wait to dive in. So we start the episode this way. You ready?

Hans-Werner Kaas 02:49

Yes!

Marcel Schwantes 02:50

What's your story?

Hans-Werner Kaas 02:52

So not that always that easy to frame a story within maybe a minute. But let me give it a shot. Marcel, I would summarize my story as a story of unplanned detours, and let me explain why that's really the nutshell summary. I graduated from high school in a small city right outside of Frankfurt, west of Frankfurt, and my passion at that time was indeed to pursue a military officer career. I applied with the German military at the time to become an officer and pass that first test, and that was always an admission test, and I wanted to become a fighter pilot. And in the last screening stage, before even the training started, I was indeed put into a flight simulator and in a two hour exercise, multiple things to do, multitasking, etc. I made in the last couple of minutes a flight mistake. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 03:52

I will not go into the details in terms of ascending versus descending, changing course, all that long story made short, I was actually screened out in that very last selection stage. And obviously I was a bit heartbroken. I think that's fair to say, a little bit heartbroken. And I was offered then to pursue a different military officer path within the within the Air Force, German air force, but I found that boring. Also turned down the opportunity to study at the German military university, and needed to redirect my course. So then I found my passion for the intersection of technology and business, and studied in a simultaneous degree, mechanical engineering and business. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 04:34

And after five years, concluded with a master's degree. And during my different type of internships. I got to know McKinsey, obviously, in 1989 but I also worked in in South Africa, in an internship in a chemical company, and also for actually a longer period time at Mercedes Benz. I think this is where I found my passion for automotive, and I did serve throughout my 33 years. Have quite a few automotive players. But the one thing which I noticed, even in my early years working with clients and serving clients, that finding the right intellectual answer for business questions, strategy questions, organization questions, operations question, is one part of this story, or you can call it one side of the same coin. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 05:21

The other side of the coin are leadership questions and how you lead yourself and how you excite your team, lead your team and lead the broad organization. And I noticed over a few years that there are indeed, very insightful, very I call it also thoughtful, emotionally and really human leaders, at the end of the day, who can inspire their organizations much more than others. Who are, I, excuse my French. Now, I may say a little bit technocratic in the way they lead. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 05:55

And by the way, there's nothing wrong with management frameworks. I have applied them. I've used them with clients over Yeah, many years at McKinsey, setting targets, looking how to break them down, get the organization behind it, to find initiatives, make strategic choices and analyze strategic options. All the good stuff, what leaders and business leaders need to do, but the difference maker is great leadership, and in our book, by the way, thank you for a great summary. I could not have done it better, I have to admit, and the difference maker in leadership is human centric leadership. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 06:31

You have to show up first and foremost as a human being. So this is my story, how from my early starts with the firm and free McKinsey, I was really drawn to leadership questions, and that also brought me to the power forum, being the coding with my friend and dear friend and co-author, Ramesh, and we have been leading that over many years together, and I'm still now even being an emeritus senior partner run quite a few every year and enjoy doing it, because this is how we work with leaders to actually reveal their toughest issues and help them in their inner journey.

Marcel Schwantes 07:12

Yeah. And speaking of battle form, I was telling you offline, I thought that would be interesting to kind of insert into the conversation, because so many top CEOs globally, I mean, quite a few of them I recognize by reading the book, have gone through the Bower forum. So explain a little bit about it.

Hans-Werner Kaas 07:32

So the Bower forum is our McKinsey flagship program to really help develop and council coach CEOs. We have run so far, and we started end of 2011 early 2012 with the program, we have conducted approximately 155 programs, and the average size of participant of the program, or the number of participants, is, by intention, small. It's only three to five CEOs, right, not 15 or 20, and there's no textbook teaching. So this is not the program you go to when you want to get the next level of insights in strategic management, organizational design. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 08:16

At times, those questions can come up, indeed. But what is unique about it is the private setting over two days, we start out on a Thursday evening where the three to five CEOs, and they are accompanied by a McKinsey senior partner or partner, really come to us with the two or three most pressing, most significant questions on their mind, And leading up to the program, we ask each CEO and their accompanying McKinsey partner to prepare for the program by reflecting on their context, their own leadership journey so far, what challenges they will be facing. Why did it they overcome them and how, but more importantly, the path ahead, and what are the two or three most important questions? 

Hans-Werner Kaas 09:01

Then we go in a methodology with deep dives for each CEO. There's a significant amount of peer coaching in there between CEOs, but also we, as faculty, and I'm flank always, or Ramesh, and if you wish, by two former CEOs. So we have a three person faculty team. And we then go through a methodology based approach until Saturday, midday, early afternoon, and really dissect and develop insights, working with that CEO on the two or three most important question he or she has. Now, we were obviously interested, or you might ask. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 09:38

So what are the topics they are bringing to you? What are those two or three big questions on their mind? And we actually did recently some analytical work and looked especially at the CEOs over the last six years. But it's also true for the last 12 years, the most important question they come to us with are personal questions, personal operating model, personal and. Professional leadership model, the balance between personal operating model personal professional leadership models, how they actually get deeper to know themselves much more deeply in terms of their challenges, their human qualities linked to human centric leadership, of course, how they can address those how they can translate human qualities in leading their executive team and leading their broader organization. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 10:24

Doesn't matter, by the way, whether it's a business organization that can be in philanthropic organization, like we have a few CEOs in the book actually featured who are from a philanthropic background, or whether it's a government organization can be an academic organization. So our insights and our call it lessons, what we have been summarizing in the book are broadly applicable for leaders of all different backgrounds, not just for CEOs in the business world. So the outcome of that two day, almost two day event is a so called commitment plan. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 11:01

That's really the outcome if you join and participate in the power forum, and that commitment plan, with the inputs and deep dives, revealing your own story, getting feedback from others, the pscos, from us as faculty team, you formulate that commitment plan Saturday morning, and the commitment plan is broken down simply, speaking, in three buckets, what you need to do to lead yourself to make progress in your own inner journey and reinvention around your get to know your own emotions. How well are you self reflecting, how self aware you are? How do you actually emphasize your human attributes in daily behavior even more? Second bucket, lead the team. Lead the executive team, the people, more or less working with you, constantly, immediately, anytime. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 11:43

And the third bucket is indeed lead the broader organization. And the commitment plan is we have framed it as a commitment plan because we say it's more than an action plan. You make that commitment to yourself, that is a commitment to yourself, and like when you make a commitment to a friend, to your spouse, to your children, you do not want to break that commitment to yourself or to others. You want to live through it and really deliver on that commitment. And usually the commitment plan Marcel is one page only. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 12:17

There are also versions of half a page, two thirds of a page, but usually it is only one page, and we encourage people to take that as an navigation tool, like a compass with them as they continue their journey. And there are different follow up mechanisms with the accompanying partners. We as faculty, are available for follow up conversations. Some of those participants choose a friend or their spouse to be an additional thought partner to deliver on the commitment plan. So that's a nutshell the power forum. And by the way, more than 550 CEOs have participated over the years in those 155 plus programs. 

Marcel Schwantes 12:59

So I the way that I summarize that is, is that the leaders that come to the Bower perform are really the they're trying to bridge the gap between what we know leaders what we know CEOs do. Well, you mentioned it, the strategy side, that the operations side, right with the part that I know personally, because I coach leaders, and this is what I see as well, bridge a gap between that side and the human centric side, which is all in the realm of emotions and behaviors, right and and elevate that. 

Marcel Schwantes 13:33

And I guess the beginning of the journey, or it's in your subtitle of the book, it's the Inside Out journey that I think, is this the most important one, because it starts with you. First starts with you. Know, who are, who are you, and what's your understanding of your own emotions and self awareness, right? And the emotions and how do you, how do you perceive other people, right? So, so much of what I'm hearing you say that that makes up that that forum is what leaders struggle with, especially the higher they go up the ranks, it seems like they lose touch with the emotional side of of the business. That's what my that's what I have seen.

Hans-Werner Kaas 14:21

I think that's a very fair observation. And the description what you use, the higher up they go, call it climbing up, the organizational letter, the career letter, whatever you want to call it. It's not only that they lose touch with the organization, let's say third, fourth, fifth level, with folks on the factory floor, in a marketing department, in the engineering labs, whatever, obviously there is some natural tendency to do so because you spent more time and formalized meeting structures with senior people right around you with your board, whether it's private company, public company, with other external stakeholders. But avoiding losing touch is so important. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 15:03

And one of the book contributors and also a power forum coach, Bob Chapman, who himself authored a great book few years ago, I think he will actually publish a new edition next year, about everybody matters. He is an great role model how to stay in touch with people and understand and get to know their stories. The second reason why it is indeed so important to actually get to know you better any day, and that's why we also obviously run the power forum to give a structured approach to those things. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 15:38

It is hard to get feedback when you become a senior leader or a CEO, one of the common statements when folks join us in the power forum, they say here, I have now a very private setting, frankly, following the Chatham House rules, a private and confidential setting to actually share my inner struggles, my inner concerns, and where I want to actually improve as a leader and as a human being, because it is lonely at the top. We hear that all the time ourselves. It's just very lonely off the top, because people have some natural distance. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 16:12

You are the leader. You are the CEO. Can they really, quote, unquote, dissent, disagree with you? And of course, they should. If you create a culture and atmosphere where they are encouraged to do that, you will grow. You will develop much better, deeper bonds with your people, and you yourself become a role model, again, in doing so. So this is why that emotional journey and psychological understanding of yourself is so important.

Marcel Schwantes 16:39

Yeah, that's great. Well, let's dive into some of the some of the chapters of the book. So much good stuff there with all of the stories that you, that you document, from people that went through the program at McKinsey. So the perception, really, still to this day, is, is that the CEO is supposed to have all the answers, right? Personally, pardon my French here, but I think that that's a load of crap. Okay, so your first chapter addresses that it's the you're not the smartest person in the room. So what's the lesson here?

Hans-Werner Kaas 17:15

Yeah, so the lesson is the following the top line lesson. And we even before we dive into chapter one, we even talk about it in the introduction. Call it chapter and the preface of the book, the time and age of the so called Imperial CEO is over. By the way, Marcel does not mean they are no longer Imperial CEOs. There are still a few Imperial CEOs in the world, in the world, in different industry sectors, but the complexity with business we are dealing with, and it doesn't really matter which industry sector you are involved in or your leader within the complexity of technological change, 

Hans-Werner Kaas 17:52

rate of innovation, different business models, new entrants, competitors, supply chains, partially getting fragmented, getting disrupted, getting redesigned, also because of geopolitical forces at play, then obviously we have a much more demanding younger generation to see and look and seek purpose and meaning when they join an organization, and they want to see how that is reflected in the objectives and the vision and mission of a company, but also In the daily behavior and the role modeling of leaders, all that makes the questions, and then thereby also the answers, much more complex that a single individual, the so called all knowing, omnipotent CEO, is the story of the past. And I give you a couple of maybe reference points there. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 18:42

There are a couple of good stories in there, actually very good ones. So the former Ford CEO Mark Fields was also a power forum coach. He had an assignment at a very young career stage. I think it was in the year 2000 he went to Japan to become the CEO of Mazda Corporation, which was at that part, part of the Ford global enterprise. And Ford had a major equity stake in there. And when he joined the Mazda team, and they had one of their first executives meetings, and he indeed was not necessarily. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 19:21

Well count with open arms. In fact, you can call it. It was a very courtesy oriented hostility, as it is probably the case in Japan, because it's a very courtesy oriented culture. And as you know, but in a few sidebar conversations, some senior members of the of the Japanese team revealed to him and said, Mark, I could be your father. I do not understand why you're qualified to lead us here. What you're praying that you can help us to find a turnaround and improvement plan. So even though Mark had a lot of hypotheses and thoughts, what should be done? From a product strategy standpoint. We call it product market strategy, etc. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 20:05

So he could have acted as if he is the smartest in the room, but he knew that would destroy and not even allow him to build any trust and bonds with a senior executive team. So he held himself back and went on a many month lasting listening tour. Nemawashi is the Japanese term where you immerse yourself in the thoughts, reflections, ideas of others, and you invest a lot of time before you actually go to the hardcore intellectual work to define the turnaround plan with all its different elements, obviously. So that is one story of, indeed, you are not the smartest in the room, the other one in the book. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 20:50

And that is also great example, because it's the current CEO of Nissan Motor Company, Makoto oshida oshida San interesting. He was a participant in the power forum that was roughly two years ago, in a power forum we hosted in New York, and he was the CEO following Carlos Ghosn. In fact, there was one CEO in between. He was not immediately following Carlos COVID. And you can certainly say that Carlos gone was in superbly well known, omnipotent CEO, at least. I think that was certainly how he was also conveyed and portrayed, and he was certainly a capable leader, but he did not engage the organization in a way that you could say, I'm not the smartest in the room, and Mr. Oshita orchida son needed to redesign and rebuild a culture where every voice is heard to actually develop best thoughts and best approaches and and approaches behind it, and that takes time. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 21:52

So he talks a guide a bit about around rebuilding culture, rebuilding empowerment, rebuilding quote, unquote, entrepreneurship, which is obviously the basis, and by the way, the auto companies are all in a very tough transition to a new world of sustainability, electrification, with a lot of bumps, if I may use that analogy, bumps in the road to the destination point. But it's just another example of a leader who has been and is practicing that he is not the smartest in the room.

Marcel Schwantes 22:25

Yeah, yeah, that's that's good. And this is a really good segue to the next thing. I want to bring up Hans-Werner, so you know, if you're going to take the journey of leadership, you're going to eventually have to face the reality that vulnerability is a strength that you need to develop. It's going to catch up to you at some point, right? So being vulnerable is a scary prospect for a lot of a lot of leaders, especially, and I mentioned this earlier, the higher you climb up the ranks, it seems like the less feedback you are getting from people, and I see this as well in my work with leaders, is they have a tendency to be less vulnerable the higher they climb up. I'm wondering if that's true for you as well. So how do we ease the minds of CEOs and senior leaders to actually see vulnerability as a strength and not a weakness.

Hans-Werner Kaas 23:29

Yeah, so vulnerability, and I know you actually picked it up in a brief article you published, I think, in or around September 10, right on the day when our when our book was released, vulnerability, first of all, number one, it's a human quality. We are all vulnerable. And we learned that even in our childhood days, when certain things do not go the way they should be, with our friends, with members on a sports team, etc, when you improve your initial social context. When you leave high school, you go to university, you suddenly see and know you don't have all the answers. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 24:07

And there are spots in your profile, if you wish, who are really very vulnerable that can be knowledge gaps, that can be emotional maturing or gaps or weaknesses, etc. So first of all, understanding, admitting it is a human quality, and it will always be with us. Number two, and that is the most profound thing, vulnerability is one of the best ways to build bonds with people, whether it's in your family, whether it's in your circle of friends, or in your professional team and organization, because vulnerability teaches them that you are approachable and that you need others to help you develop answers and even get feedback, to actually embrace the feedback and make you a better human being first, before we even talk about becoming a better leader. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 24:57

But yes, you will also become a better leader so vulnerable. As a way to inviting feedback. And if you show vulnerability, people will help you. They are. I mean, in my own experience, and working with CEOs the power forum, 95 plus percent you will invite unsolicited, genuine, authentic feedback and good advice from people, business people, executive peers and colleagues, but also from friends and family. If you try to protect yourself and build a shell around you, you may call it a facade, people will not come to you. You're not authentic, because you're kind of, I mean, building like a small ball around you, and they would say, Hey, why should I actually even offer him some suggestions or her some suggestion? Why should I do that? 

Hans-Werner Kaas 25:48

So vulnerability is a way to invite feedback, build bonds, and by the way, because all the folks who give you feedback and advice, they notice themselves that they are vulnerable and are then more honest and more willing to admit it and show vulnerability. So it's a way to also inspire an organization. This is what we explain in the book and in, frankly, many of the conversations we have having released or published a book now and get away from that notion of weakness, by the way, not an easy journey, because still, organizations tick a little bit. We need strong leaders. Strong leaders little bit following the principle of Darwinism, those are the ones who actually survive. Those are the ones we promote, but eventually they lose the bonds with the organization.

Marcel Schwantes 26:38

And yet, that's why vulnerability is such a such a hard thing to do, because it demands courage, bravery, and because if you're going to open yourself up just to receive feedback, you're going to have to accept the feedback. What's coming your way, right? And even a step further, is to do something with the feedback that you receive.

Hans-Werner Kaas 27:04

Absolutely, I mean the feedback you receive, by the way, at McKinsey, but all organizations, we are a feedback driven culture, and in all honesty, Marcel, sometimes I felt, or colleagues felt, or one One might feel it can be overwhelming how much feedback you get. You say, How do I sort through all the feedback I get? But one way to always is what, in my view, is very important, is if you boil it down, and if you look over a longer time frame, you would say, Hey, I heard that feedback now from eight people over the last call, it, 12 month, then you are able to extract the most valuable pieces of feedback. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 27:47

These are the ones you should reflect on, and it's very important you reflect on because you as a leader, as a human being, you still have a choice to make do. I accept and embrace the feedback and try to change. Mostly behavioral change can be skill building, but mostly behavioral that is a choice you have to make. Nobody can make that choice other than you as a person, as a human being. So this is why that process, and it's all part also what we do in that inner journey and inside out, called a little bit of a reinvention, is so important.

Marcel Schwantes 28:20

I was wondering how, how much does Hubert's or a larger than life ego get in the way of that process of building vulnerability and and leading the way, you know, showing the example for other others to also display vulnerability,

Hans-Werner Kaas 28:42

Yeah. So if you have an a super ego, or even a smaller version of a super, super ego, it's a very tough starting point, because, for whatever reason, in how you were brought up, how you lived your life, whether professionally or in your friends have circled socially, you were always rewarded that being strong and not vulnerable is the way to go, and therefore your reward mechanism did reward it. And you said, Hey, being strong not vulnerable. This brought me here. So it is working. Maybe I go from where I'm today. I can go even further if I remain that quote, unquote, unquote, that less or non verbal call it set up. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 29:29

But the more you go in an organization, the more people you lead, the more you become a role model, and you're also visible as a role model, even to people who you do not interact with in a daily manner, even inside, outside your organization, those people at point, at some point, may say you function almost like an programmed robot, and you don't want that. You want to interact with people even the time in the age of AI predictive AI generate. Of AI, and we have quite a few comments in the book there as well. The human element of human touch will never be replaced. And therefore, how to overcome your super ego, it will take some real hard work of coaching and counseling with a couple of people who are closest to that person to give constant feedback. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 30:22

That is one way, how you can address that, to adopt, embrace any way. Because that one reality is even in the most super ego person, it's inside him or herself, just not being honest about revealing it. The other thing how to overcome it is bit more. Can be a few, I would say, life or job changing intervention points where somebody throws a wrench at you and you are not able to catch it. And that can be, can be customer feedback. It can be a missed promotion, etc, etc. You might get worst case, you might get fired at some point, then people start to reflect. So either you have a very well intended couple of advisors and coaches around you to help you overcome that ego, or it needs a little bit of a call it a life changing intervention. 

Marcel Schwantes 31:17

Yeah. Is there a good example of a leader, a CEO, who's kind of demonstrated vulnerability as a strength that you can you can think of?

Hans-Werner Kaas 31:26

You know, we have actually a couple of them, not only a couple of you, actually in the book. By the way, not all the stories even I share with you are actually all documented the book. But that's why we talk. One of the reasons why we talk, I give you another example of Mark Fields. In Mark Fields, you know, is not only about our forum coach with me, and the book contributor is a former client, and I can say that now and when he left Ford Motor Company after almost three years in the CEO role, that was back in May 2017 that was not the plan he had in mind. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 32:05

Had this major misalignment with the board. They actually decided to replace him, etc, etc. It was a very, very tough situation for him. And by the way, Mark never had a super ego as a shell around and that was not the point, but that was a life changing event for him, at least from a professional standpoint, professional standpoint, and he needed to reinvent him, reinvent himself. Actually understand what are the his real, real passions, but also what are his emotions? What is this things he is struggling with, the quote, unquote, also disappointment he went through, and he's a great example how he has a reinvented himself. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 32:46

He is now both a private investor. He's a senior advisor at a very large US private equity firm, etc. He and his member of on the board of a few public companies. So that was a life changing intervention, where, in the first few months, probably the pathway was not clear, also, because you need to deal with those emotions and all the things which you held up so high over all the 30 years you grew up in the in the industry, in that particular company, at Ford, etc, and then reinventing yourself. So that was life changing. 

Marcel Schwantes 33:23

So, so let's talk about failure, because, you know, it's it's going to happen. I mean, leaders fail all the time, but some leaders have a hard time dealing with it. They don't want to talk about it. They, you know, because they're experiencing an array of emotions, guilt, shame, anger, you know. And a lot of the leaders that I have actually coached a few of these where they bury their emotions, which then makes it worse, because now they're walking around like a ticking time bomb. Some become bitter, or they may withdraw and go into deep depression. All of this stuff affects their their performance. So what's McKinsey's approach to helping you know, Coach leaders to through failure and setbacks when it happens? 

Hans-Werner Kaas 34:18

Yeah, so the the obvious answer is, you have to learn from your failures, but, but that is only the second or third step. So when, when we work with leaders about failures, and all of us have made mistakes, they go through experiences of failures, we say it is a little bit of an call it a couple of two or three phases. You have to actually go through. Number one, admit to yourself that you have made a mistake.

Marcel Schwantes 34:50

There's your vulnerability part, right there. Again. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 34:52

Vulnerability! This is, by the way, where it really starts. Because we are all very good in telling ourselves. Else that well, it's not really my mistakes. It's not my failure. Information provided to me by my team was not accurate or not sufficiently accurate. I did not have the right amount of discussions, or I did not have a good thought partner. We built our I always call it our self justification, and that is the first step, to abandon that and admit that you have made a mistake. Admit it to yourself. First. Then comes the second step, be honest about it, to admit it and discuss it with others. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 35:36

And usually, by the way, Marcel, how that starts is you start with the people you trust most, right? It's hard to do when, let's say, take the example of a CEO, you usually will not talk about it immediately with your board, who keep in mind boards hire and fire CEOs. So that is, by the way, one of the book containers. John plant, who's still an active CEO helmet aerospace. He was previously CEO of arconica, company, which he split into different parts. One of them became helmet aerospace, and still an active CEO. And before that, many years of a large automotive component supplier, TW he always reminds me of that, and says Hans-Werner, he's also a power forum coach, by the way, John plant, he always says, keep in mind boards hire and fire you. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 36:25

So if you want to find people you really trust, look at other potential confidence around you, in your team, in your social circles, whatever. So you need to find those people to whom you to whom you show most trust and admit the mistakes. Because what, what they can do Marcel is actually quite good. They give you feedback. How you admit? Because you can sugar coat it a little bit and say, you know, yeah, that investment division of two 50 million we put in that new product. I mean, we made, I made a mistake. I didn't listen, but you know what? Back to what I'm commented being honest to yourself, the information really provided was not that proper, not that high quality. So when you get feedback from the people you trust, when you admit the mistake, they call out what you should say and what you should not say, and be really honest about it.

Hans-Werner Kaas 37:20

Otherwise, when you go to the broader public within an organization, they immediately say that guy or that lady, they are just not honest. Now. They are sugar coating. They are it's a little bit like paying lip service. They want to admit their mistake, but it's not really their mistake. So trust with trusted people, it and practice with them when you actually made a mistake. Then you go in step three to the broader organization, and now the important part starts, and it's a little bit like that four step approach. You have to ask yourself, why did you make that mistake? So that is what we obviously always say, learn from your failures. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 38:00

But that is the hardest part, in addition to the emotional part. So what were the assumptions you made, or beliefs you may you have had which led you to take a certain decision or show a certain behavior and make that mistake? So questioning those long held and deeply held beliefs and assumptions. That is the hard part, and you have to actually challenge those beliefs and assumptions, otherwise you are immune to change. Bob Keegan, an emeritus professor at Harvard University, actually, he led their the graduate school for adult learning. Many, many years, he has even written a book about it, Immunity to Change. And as only as a side note, he was once in my early years as a senior partner at McKinsey, a coach of mine. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 38:54

So I, I recall always his point around Immunity to Change and what makes us immune to change or not willing to change, are those deeply held beliefs and assumptions in us, and they can be like a justification mechanism to whatever we do, we always come back to those beliefs. So you have to actually challenge that, and you do need a couple of maybe one good coach who works through that with you. It's not just say, Hey, I write down those lonely health beliefs, but then you need to ask yourself, why do I actually hold them up? Why? Why? Why? So that's our story of dealing with failure. It's a little bit of kind of a four step approach.

Marcel Schwantes 39:35

Yeah. Hans-Werner, I don't know if you, if you're aware of the the arbiter Institute's classic book, uh, self deception, or leadership and self deception that it's screaming at me right now as you as you explain how what may hold us back is actually these long held beliefs and assumptions that we make, and we keep making it over and over again. Uh, with the same result, right? And on the book, and I had Mitch Warner on the, on the on the on the show not too long ago, and he's talking about, it's not that you're being doing something, you know, of a nefarious or evil nature to cause disruption, or, you know something bad to happen, but it's these beliefs that you hold on to that are actually deceiving you to making bad choices, but you don't see it. It's a complete blind spot, because you don't have the awareness of it.

Hans-Werner Kaas 40:32

100% agree, and let me only add to that, to what you just shared about leadership and self deception, it happens on all type of institutions. And one important insight brought to us in the book, but also we practiced it in the power forum several times, is through a retired Navy admiral, Eric Olson, and only quick story. So Eric Olson himself is an educated navy seal, and he rose through the ranks of a military leader within the Navy, and he became the head of US Special Operations Command in 2007 and he helped that role, that position, four years before he retired. And he has coined that term, what he calls fearless learning. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 41:18

 it's essential to teach all all people in an organization, you can say, but certainly Special Warfare operators, who are parts of Special Operations Forces who, by by definition, take on the toughest missions and also dangerous missions. And what he has taught his people over many years in different capacities and different roles, and he brought that to the power format to the book, is that notion of fearless learning. And on the one hand, I found it very intuitive when he used that term fearless the first time and said, of course, we should not have fear. And however, the way he explained it was a little bit differently framed as I originally understood it, I thought fearless learning is looking at new facts, being open minded to new facts, by the way, that does still matter. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 42:11

That's important not go into with preconceived notions. However, he meant something else which is very important, that is the fear to abandon your long held beliefs and assumptions. This is so important, and that can be long held beliefs and assumptions, how you operate as a leader. But it can even be on a special mission. So when Special Operations Forces and he describes in the book, among other things, the Osama bin Laden raid for which he was the responsible military planner, and he worked side by side with Leon Panetta, who was the CIA director at the time. And Leon Panetta had the overall responsibility to President Obama to actually plan and execute that lead. And what he says is, whenever you send special forces into a certain mission. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 43:03

The plan does never survive. First enemy contact, the plan with which you showed up. And even though all those special operations forces, they have a plan B, a Plan C, call it back up plans, and they build different scenarios. But he says even those backup plans are thrown out of the window when the reality on the ground meets our best warriors. And his notion is when you recognize as a leader or any member of that Special Operations Forces team, when you recognize that the Terran where you're operating in right now is different from the map, which is the analogy, obviously, of the plan. You have to go with the terrain. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 43:49

If the map differs from the terram, go with the terrain, which means assess the situation real time, get inputs from every team member on that special assignment. Make a new plan, which hopefully is a winning plan. So in that instance, obviously it's giving up the specific assumptions made for that plan, for that map. But this term, and the way he framed it, is sticking with me. Marcel, I always think even in small things we all do and say, God, the term seems to be different, like the map, your spouse has asked you something differently and or she asked you to do this, and suddenly you don't get like, quote, unquote, you don't make progress. What? What's going wrong? So even in small, small things in life, you can apply that, that principle of, if the map differs from the terrain, go with the terrain.

Marcel Schwantes 44:41

React in the moment, right? 

Hans-Werner Kaas 44:43

Yeah, in the moment, yeah, reassess is actually the right word, right word, not only assess, reassess, 

Marcel Schwantes 44:50

Yeah. Okay, so part of the journey, and maybe it's, you know, some of these chapters almost kind of overlap into in one over. Laps to the other but I wanted to talk about how leadership is to practice making mistakes that can be off putting Hans-Werner, because none of us that are in high level positions ever want to make mistakes. So how do we reconcile that with, you know, doing it, practicing making mistakes, but doing it in a way that serves us well and serves our organizations well. Is there a strategy? 

Hans-Werner Kaas 45:29

Yeah, there is a kind of a strategy. Or call it, I would call it maybe heuristic learning, which means heuristic approaches and mathematics are always applied if you cannot squeeze a problem in an formulaic equation, whether it's a differential equation, whatever you come up with heuristic approaches, which are the best devised approaches to deal with, to deal with an issue and that is relevant for making mistakes. So why it is so important to make mistakes, by the way, that is one also of Eric Olson's experiences he shares with us is around practice making mistakes. Yes, and that sounds like, Hey, you cannot always practice making mistakes. And make mistakes five times, 10 times. Yes. You should not repeat the same mistakes over and over and over again, because then you have not learned and not revisited your assumptions and as and long abilities or learnings. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 46:24

But the reason why making mistakes is something to practice is because when you make a mistake, you go to a very different emotional experience than being initially and always successful. And that emotional experience go from disappointment, but eventually you developed resilience. You don't want to give up, you want to read direct course. You want to develop a new approach to actually succeed. So there's an emotional experience in in practicing mistakes, and the second one is because you are forced to come back with a different approach, because if you try to solve the same problem and it is not working, and you use it over and over again, it's a definition of insanity, yeah. So you need to apply a different approach, and that forces you to work together with others and come up with a new angle, a different plan to approach it. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 47:17

So when you practice making mistakes, you usually always look at a wider range of solutions, which you would have not looked at if you may have succeeded in the first instance. This is why it broadens the upper to our of solutions you are looking at. This is, I would call it especially, also typical, and more written about with startup founders and startup leaders, because they go through a practice making mistakes many times. They call it break. You know, we break things right. They break things. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 47:54

And I can speak somehow also from my own experience, because I'm an investor in two startups, one with a former McKinsey colleague, a very good friend in the space of digital concierge for end consumers, generative AI techniques and others what we use, and then another one within in the medical device space. And I've talked to many startup entrepreneurs as much, by the way, compared even to CEOs of established, mature companies and the practicing of mistakes, what they do to redirect course and also in in quicker iterations. You sometimes read about that. We call it agility, agile management. I don't care about the word, but it's being willing to make fast iterations and learning and come up with a new angle. Yeah.

Marcel Schwantes 48:42

Well, the point is, you you practice making mistakes in order to learn something to move you forward. It's not to continue to make like you said. I mean, you have to draw the line at some point. If somebody is making repeated mistakes and not learning from it, that has to stop.

Hans-Werner Kaas 49:00

That has to stop absolutely because then people are not questioning their those long held beliefs and the assumptions they're not willing to learn. So that that's why that, and it's nice that you actually talked about it in that sequence failure, learning from failure, practice, making mistakes, and then that link to feel is learning like a small a small loop. You need to apply fearless learning to actually practice mistakes and take the right lessons away.

Marcel Schwantes 49:30

Yeah, like that, if you're listening. All right. Hans-Werner, so the journey of leadership, well, any journey, for that matter, always has a starting point. So what's the starting point for this journey?

Hans-Werner Kaas 49:44

So the starting point, first of all, starting point, is always getting really authentic with yourself as a leader. Doesn't matter which leader you are and at which organization you are, that is that inner starting point. Point of understanding your own emotions and human qualities, your capabilities, and I mean also an emotional standpoint, everything we actually describe in chapter one to six, and then, which is, lead yourself chapter seven to 12, lead others. That inner self assessment is really the starting point for any leader, if you frame or if I understand, interpret the question more broadly, the starting point for that journey of leadership book we wrote. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 50:29

Allow me to quickly give you the story, because it goes back to August 2021 which means we have written around three years to get the book done, approximately, and Ramesh and I, we my my friend and co author coding here of the power forum. We actually sat together grab the lunch, and we were reflecting on all those power forums we which each of us has led and we collaborated on over all the years. And we talked to a couple of other call it host, senior partner, host for power forums as well. And the profound insight we had is, how can we share the lessons learned around human centric leadership, which is that common theme around personal and professional leadership model and self assessment, start with you in our journey. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 51:16

How can you share? Can it be shared? How can we share it with the broader world. And our original idea was, I would say, not aspirational enough. We thought maybe we write a small, small article and publish it on different outlets, which McKinsey obviously owns and manages different outlet channels. And then we reflected and said, is that really appropriate? Is it really doing justice to the cause? All the lessons learned over many years, and at that time, probably we had already conducted more than 100 programs, and we took a step back in that conversation and said, No, this is not doing justice. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 52:00

We need to make a more profound impact. We need to write a book. That same afternoon, we called our head of McKinsey publishing, Raju Nari setti, and we explained him our idea, our core thesis and themes, plus our unique, truly distinctive data set and insight of experiences through the power form over many years, and within a second, he said, we will publish a book. You need to write a book. We had to deal a little bit with sequencing of another book which was supposed and got published, also CEO Excellence, which is, I mean, I call it always the one on one of what you have to do. But our book is really about the human leader, the human qualities and the to be if you wish to to be, characteristics of how you show up every day in your personal or your professional life. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 52:50

So that was the starting point of journey of leadership. And it was not a straight line. Also, the book was not a straight line. We went through a few iterations what the content of the book was how we structure it, the title, subtitle, all of the things you do when you write a book. And yeah, that's where we are three years and a couple of months later. And now the book is published, and we say now the important part of that journey also starts, which is the dialog, the communication, the debating, of our lessons, of our insights, with folks like you, Marcel, with others who are well known entities in the leadership space, with CEOs, with leaders of all different type of backgrounds across the world. So we are in the early part of that journey around debating and sharing our insights.

Marcel Schwantes 53:42

That's great. So as we wind down here, is there anything that we didn't cover? You're just okay, this has to get out. Yeah,

Hans-Werner Kaas 53:51

I think your love and action theme I need to pick up, because it is actually quite important, and we write about it in the book. First of all, it's a fundamental trade that that you need to love what you do as a leader, and you need to love your people. Otherwise, in my view, you're not an authentic leader. You're certainly not a humble leader, you're not a vulnerable leader. But there's one other notion which is very nicely interlinked with love, which is empathy. Yeah, without empathy, you cannot show love in action or practice love as a leader, with your organization, with your team, with with your products, with your services, what with your customers, with your business partners, etc, etc. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 54:33

So that notion of empathy is so important, and empathy obviously means, on the one hand, showing emotions, but it is more than showing emotions and compassion, it means immerse yourself in the stories of the people you are dealing with, because otherwise you are superficial to them. You are not authentic. Immersing yourself in the personal stories of the people you are dealing with on your team. Team, when you visit a customer, or when, when you visit folks in in the on the factory shop floor, where you might not always show up because of time, natural time constraints is so important only if you understand and genuinely immerse yourself in the stories of others. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 55:15

And yes, there are timelines. You cannot do that with 1000s and 1000s of people, but pick and make your choices only, then you can be empathetic. And then listen to them, immerse yourself in the stories, then ask them how you can help. And sometimes it might only be a few well intended words, a piece of advice. Sometimes it takes a bit more effort to help, but empathy is so fundamentally important because at the end of the day, and that is the sub line in our I think it's chapter 12 in the book, when you when we say, if you want your people to care, care about your customers, care about the organization, care about The quality, whatever about innovation and your products, show them first that you care. So if you want your people to care, show them that you care. I think that's a great closing line, and it nicely correlates with love and action. 

Marcel Schwantes 56:15

You Yeah, you splice that beautifully, because you're right. That does take care of one of our closing questions, which is how to lead with more actionable love. So we'll do the empathy route for sure. There, I have brought so many guests that have such immense ideas and practices that leaders can do to implement that kind of behavior, not just I'm saying, yes, it starts with you, the leader, exhibiting empathy, immersing yourself in people's stories, right? Listening, well, but then how do we actually embark on the bigger journey, which is to help other people to do the same? 

Marcel Schwantes 56:57

So now that you're creating that groundswell of empathy across the enterprise, right? Oh, man, when that happens, talk about a high performing organization, because people now can can solve problems much, much faster when they just cut through the drama, when we are able to listen to people's stories and understand what's really going on and get right to the root of the issue with empathy. It's it creates that much more impact, for sure.

Hans-Werner Kaas 57:30

By the way, one one additional thought in terms of, frankly, a key takeaway, and that is actually a phrase which comes from bob chapman, and having talked a lot with him in the context of the book, and also after the publication of the book, he defines leadership to take care of the people who are entrusted to you as a leader, and that means you have to show empathy. And he practices it in many different ways, in his own company, but also he is a trailblazer for that human, human centric leadership approach. And the key line is always show empathy. Empathy. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 58:12

Empathetic listening is a terminology he uses frequently, and we were inspired by that, and this is really how we created that line in chapter 12. If you want people to care, show them that you care. And that happens every day, and even a moment Marcel, when one of us in a conversation, we might be distracted and we might be doing some multitasking, which all of us are a little bit guilty of the other person on the phone, across the table, whatever they notice it. So here does mean you immerse yourself in them, in their story, but also what is currently on their mind. And that is a tall order of magnitude for the leader to do it as frequently as possible.

Marcel Schwantes 59:04

Yep, yep. All right. Hans-Werner, bring us home with that one thing that keeps speaking of takeaways. How would you of all the things we talked about, what would you like us to remember the most to walk away with here?

Hans-Werner Kaas 59:19

Yeah, so I think the key point I would like to walk away here in the conversation with you, Marcel, but frankly, any reader of the book, any person we interact with in messaging the key insights of the book, change starts with yourself, and that change with yourself is your inner assessment and reflection and self awareness and where you stand with your own emotions, psychological concerns, positive and negative factors in that psychological emotional setup so your inner clock. You have to listen and look at your inner clock. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 1:00:04

And if your inner clock is going backwards and not forwards, or it does maybe jump over an hour. Or here I'm using now the time analogy, then it is time to change. And that is why the subtitle is as telling as the main title, how do CEOs learn to lead from the inside out? It's inside out change. And Mahmud magandi framed it even much, much better. He said, If you want to see the change in the world, you need to be that change yourself. So and we muramesh obviously has even a lot of deeper call it, additional reflections to share on that. But change starts with yourself inside out, and reinvention is our story.

Marcel Schwantes 1:00:53

Beautifully put. And we'll end on that note. It's the journey of leadership, that's the book title. And if people want to connect with you. Hunt for where can they go? Where can they find you?

Hans-Werner Kaas 1:01:04

Easiest way is on LinkedIn. I do publish on LinkedIn. I do check when people reach out to me on LinkedIn, including the messaging channel on LinkedIn. That's the way to reach, reach out to me. Or they can go on the McKinsey website and look for our book. We have a place, a site for our book. We also follow the messages closely which readers or other interested folks, any interested person, places on the McKinsey website.

Marcel Schwantes 1:01:31

This has been fun. We need to do it again. 

Hans-Werner Kaas 1:01:34

Absolutely. That has been found. Marcel, let's plan whatever the episode two at some point not so distant the future, because the good news is we learn in every dialog, whether with you now, I met, you know, six CEOs executives earlier this week here in Detroit, I met aviation executives and CEOs in Dallas two weeks ago, that there's always a new level of insight, a different context these leaders are operating in. So when we have those dialogs, when I engage with those folks, I always already get a few more ideas for the for the next book. So not that we want to write the next book. Now we have some aspirations. First. We need to get the message out here. But the feedback is and the dialog is so important.

Marcel Schwantes 1:02:27

Yeah, this is an important book, and I'm so glad you joined us today. Folks, you can keep the conversation going on social media with hashtag love in action podcast and look for my show notes, as well as a YouTube link to watch the show and see me and Hans-Werner interact, which you can find all that on my website, marcelschwantes.com, for Hans-Werner Kaas, I'm Marcel Schwantes, remember, love wins. We'll see you next time.

Hans-Werner Kaas 1:02:58

Thank you.